It's where we talk
It was a hot Saturday afternoon and I had planned to meet a friend at a Starbucks at Raffles Place. It was one of those weekends I had to work and my friend was visiting Singapore for only a few days, so we figured this was the best opportunity for us to meet. Raffles Place was generally very quiet, as it usually is over a weekend. When I arrived at the Starbucks, there was only one other person there. He was very well dressed, sporting a blazer, which was quite unusual in Singapore, especially on a weekend.
He looked a little bored, and as my friend had not yet arrived, I went over and said hello after getting my coffee. He smiled and spoke with a somewhat American accent. He said he was from Japan and was visiting Singapore to view properties for investment. He said he was viewing some properties in the Raffles Place area and was waiting for his next appointment, later that afternoon, with an agent.
The property market had recently come back to life in Singapore and I knew there were foreigners who were investing in properties here, particularly in prime areas such as Raffles Place. However, I had the impression that many of these investors were wealthy individuals from developing countries such as Indonesia, India and China. I asked him what brought him all the way to Singapore to purchase property and why he did not want to purchase property in Japan.
He shook his head sadly and said that he thought Japan’s property market was a dead investment, at least in his lifetime. He worked in the financial sector and said that although Japanese companies remained global brands, its domestic economy has been suffering from deflation for almost two decades. Property and asset prices have been steadily falling. He explained that if you buy property in Japan, as time passes, it will get less valuable because of deflation. This has been the case for more almost 2 decades, apart from a brief recovery from 2005 to 2007.
He said that for those who are able to, making international investments had been the most sensible decision. In most other developed economies, properties can be expected to rise in value steadily, so one can be sure that the investment is safe. Furthermore, because of low interest rates, the Japanese yen has been steadily declining over the years. From the point of view of a Japanese investor, this means that a foreign investment has three benefits. First, the investment itself is more likely to rise in value than an investment in Japan. Second, as the foreign currency appreciates, the investor will be able to get more Japanese Yen in exchange. Third, as the Japanese economy is deflating, the Yen he gets at the future date will have more purchasing power at the time it is converted back. Thus, he said, it makes most sense for the Japanese to invest abroad or in foreign assets.
I had always known that Japan had been suffering from deflation, but this was the first time I had met someone who had actually explained how his individual decisions were affected by it. I guessed he must have been quite wealthy, as Raffles Place properties are amongst the most expensive in Singapore. He seemed like a sophisticated investor, and when I asked him more about his background, he explained that he had been to a well known business school in the US and had worked there for several years, so he had a more international perspective than most Japanese.
He also explained that the ‘lost decade’ in Japan has been much worse for many ordinary Japanese. Some of those who bought their properties in the late 80s and early 90s are now sitting on properties worth much less than what they originally invested and are unable to cash out on their equity for retirement. Some still have loans that exceed the value of their property, which makes it impossible for them to sell. The young Japanese generally do not bother purchasing property because they believe it is likely to decline in value. He wants to send his own children to University in the US, so they have more options.
My friend was rather late, but I was having such an interesting conversation that I did not realize the passing of time. Eventually, the Japanese man excused himself and left for his appointment. My mind was still buzzing at the end of the conversation and I wanted to better understand what had caused the Japanese economy to spiral into deflation, and whether there were any lessons for Singapore or the rest of the world to learn from this story.
Deflation and falling property prices may seem like alien concepts in Singapore at the moment, especially with the immediate talk being about rising prices and trying to cool the property markets. Yet, when I was growing up in the 80s, the value of Japanese real estate was legendary. I remember once hearing a story, which may be an urban legend, that the real estate value of the garden of the Emperor’s palace in Tokyo was worth more than the real estate in the entire state of California (the largest state in the US).
I may share any further thoughts I have on this in a subsequent entry.
Max
March 12th, 2010 at 8:32 pm
Very interesting piece! What do you think of the government’s plan to cool the property market in Singapore?
Singapore Girl Next Door
March 12th, 2010 at 11:17 pm
The property market in Singapore is basic mathematics.
The number of properties must be proportional to the population, local and foreign, permanent and temporary.
This is the reason why we’ll never have a bubble because we welcome the increase in the population thru immigration.
The only reason why they want to recently cool things off in the property market is because there had been pressure to curb the lax immigration policy.
And this is the reason why Singaporeans are screwed – the recent surge in the property market was not due to investments but rather due to Singaporeans who had sold property 2 years ago, had been renting for the past 2 years (this accounts for the past increase in rentals), and now want to buy a new home.
This is the reason why many Singaporeans NOW complain about rising property prises. They are buying property for them to live into one, and no longer for investments.
But when these Singaporeans move into the new space, they will eventually vacate the rental space.
What we end up with is extra space.
And it’s time for the property prices to drop again.
rodolfo
March 13th, 2010 at 3:15 am
That is the tragedy of Japan.
But we are quite different. Our door is open to foreigners. For now, the govt may say their are slowing things down a little. But after a while (or the elections), the policy towards foreigners is likely to be relaxed once again. And if you pour this much water into a glass as small as Singapore, you can be quite sure that it won’t take much for the glass to spill over quickly.
Ah Kow
March 14th, 2010 at 5:09 pm
Japan like opposition ward. Buy property, sure go down in value.
Concerned Flat Buyer
March 14th, 2010 at 6:57 pm
Reasonable parallel comparisons with Japan Real Estate but more importantly, ‘What do you think of the Singapore government’s plan to cool the property market in Singapore?’ as Max has put it.
I worry for myself and the future generation of Singaporeans.Are we in for a ‘Deflation Experience’?
Should we consider looking at greener pastures?Will there be affordable housing in the future?Or should we be prepared for million dollar ‘public housings’?
We are encouraged to visit neighbouring countries for medical treatment.Does that mean that the healthcare system is failing?All of us grow old,including the PRs and Foreigners.
They can go back ‘home’ to reasonably priced healthcare and homes but what about us Singaporeans?Will we see a second cycle of mass importation of foreigners to offset the unproductive old Singaporeans?
We had lax immigration policies unlike Japan as Singapore Girl Next Door and Rodolfo have pointed.We have seen productivity drop with this mass influx of foreigners.
Is this silly policy the catalyst for the Singapore Social ‘Deflation Experience’?
How about the catastrophic losses of our Sovereign Wealth Funds?Will the Ministry of Finance offset these losses by making life more difficult for Singaporeans by increasing the population once more.As more people means more GDP and more money for the PAP Government.
When will this cycle end?Do we really need 10 million people on this island?Please discuss real issues and not experiences of Foreign Countries.
Stick with the real issues.The PAP is ‘lucky’ that this Jack Neo saga has taken centre stage instead of the more pertinent Budget debate.
I sincerely hope that your generation of PAP Youth and Leaders engage and debate about the real issues.Me,my family,friends and colleagues are very disappointed with the current batch of MPs and also the level of debate.It is really a ‘Wayang’.
I did attend one day and was apalled by the turnout.The Gallery was almost empty and the seats were vacant most of the time.Shocking disbelief.At least I found out the truth for myself.
What to do, it has happenned?How did the PAP become so weak?
Ah Kow
March 14th, 2010 at 8:44 pm
@Concerned Flat Buyer
You scared HDB price go down (deflation) or you scared HDB price go up (cannot afford)? If both also you scared, you want gahmen do what?
Bliss
March 15th, 2010 at 4:36 am
Ah Kow
Oh you mean gahmen can do something about it. Good, I want new flat prices to come down and leave resale prices to market forces. See, simple, but Mr Mah already made something like $3 billion losses last year with the high flat prices so how is he going to do it? If he can make new flat prices come down significantly, and also not lose anymore taxpayers money, good on him and the PAP.
Vote them OUT!
March 15th, 2010 at 5:39 pm
After 5 months and a note about Japanese Deflation, thanks to a chance meeting at Starbucks.I think these guys really need to get out of their ivory tours and see ‘real people’ for a change than just belief that they aremeeting common people at their MPS sessions.
Please discuss the ‘real issues’ PAP members.Getting disappointed with the level of discussion over here.Or is this a practise ground for future ‘wayanging’ in parliament.
I, like Max,Singapore Girl Next Door,Rodolfo and the Concerned would like to know of the government’s plan to cool down the property market.Where did your comrade Mah Bow Tan go wrong?
Do you live in Public Housing or are intending to live in one?What do you know about Singapore public housing?Is it affordable?Or is this another piece from PAP to divert from the real issues.
The articles in your YPAP website are bewildering.Criticising ad nauseum without constructive solutions.I would like prices of new flats to come down.How the hell did Mah lose $3 billion dollars?Does that mean that prices will continue to spiral up to make up for those losses?
Is the PAP screwing the Singaporean?
Ah Kow
March 15th, 2010 at 6:12 pm
@Vote them OUT!
You wan cheap house is it? Then you vote opposition in your ward lah. Confirm your house price come down. Then you lan lan, cannot sell because got big loan.
Ah Kow no want his flat price to come down. So he vote PAP.
Vote them OUT!
March 15th, 2010 at 10:04 pm
Ah Kow.
What nonsense are you spouting?You have no clue on the prices of public housing in opposition wards.You sound like the typical yes men grassroots leaders we have at PA and PAP.No logic.Just empty rhetoric and upgrading threats.
Please post the prices of public housing in the opposition wards and do a comparison with neighbouring wards.Or let me guess, the PAP is going to give Hougang 200 million dollars and Potong Pasir 160 million dollars for upgrading in the coming elections.
Where did SM Goh get the monies for the upgrading carrots in GE 2006?Which fund was that?
Ah Kow please vote the PAP.They need all the help they can from the NTUC members,PA members and all the PAP member votes.The Civil Service vote is shifting.
Let’s vote out the PAP for its’ incompetance and hoodwinking our futures.
A Singapore for Singaporeans.End the screwing of Singaporeans by the Men in White.
Ah Kow
March 16th, 2010 at 10:06 am
@Vote them OUT
Aiyah, Ah Kow no skolar lah. But he see opposition ward ah, si beh chia lat. Sometime, rubbish also never clean.
Ah Kow got two friend, Ah Beng and Ah Seng. Both buy flat in 1980, same same price. Ah Beng buy Toa Payoh, Ah Seng buy Potong Pasir.
Last year, two also want to sell flat. Ah Beng sell very fast wan, get $350,000. Ah Seng want to sell also nobody want to buy. After he try long long time, got one man buy $250,000. Ah Seng lugi $100,000.
Live opposition ward ah, kena sai wan. Better to vote PAP.
Singapore Girl Next Door
March 16th, 2010 at 11:48 am
Ah kow, not so fast lah!
If you and your neighbors are from Potong Pasir and you vote and vote the opposition, you will suddenly become part of Toa Payoh on next election.
It’s the same what!!!!!
And if on next election more and more people from Toa Payoh vote the opposition, on the next election, their place will be redrawn to be part of Balestier or Jurong or something lah!!!!
Property market here has nothing to do with PAP or opposition what. You will be PAP whether you lilke it or not!
In Singapore, when market forces are in favor of GLC developers, that is, when price is high, the gahmen won’t intervene. But when market forces turn around and becomes a disavantage, they will intervene with the supply to minimize their losses.
Ayo, you converted to Singaporean citizen for so long, and still you don’t know this?
Wait til you are old and they en bloc your place, and with the property prices so high by then, they’d tell you it’s about market forces, so just go to the old folks place at JB mah! Medicine is cheap there too.
Explain to me, JB is not PAP, but it’s very good what!
Ah Kow
March 16th, 2010 at 11:59 pm
@Singapore Girl Next Door
Aiyah, opposition ward never redraw wan lah.
If Ah Seng house can become Toa Payoh are, he si beh shiok wat. Can sell flat make money like Ah Beng.
But he lan lan buy Potong Pasir. Kanna deflation.
Singapore Girl Next Door
March 17th, 2010 at 11:36 am
Ah Kow, the rest of us are just busy trying to figure out if we have enough money to start a family, let alone buy and make a home.
It’s easy when one is rich and look at the property market in terms of investments, gains, deflation and taxes.
But for people such as myself, there’s little time to do anything else but save money from 22 upto 32 so that you have enough to pay the downpayment for a 80sqkm space.
Singaporeans clock the most time in the world just to save for a home, and our dear leader accuses us of being complacent and lazy.
So I wonder if anyone in the government is really listening…..and of course I don’t mean the “online agents” the government hired as part of their “online campaign” to be on the offensive against people such as myself.
Singapore Girl Next Door
March 17th, 2010 at 11:55 am
Ah Kow, “opposition areas” are always redrawn.
The opposition had gained significant votes in the past 2 decades. From 25% and now upto 40%.
But being a small group, they can only contest at SMCs.
So do you remember how the government dissolved SMCs to make way for GRCs. And then they made more GRCs than there are SMCs.
You know, from one Singaporean to another, you have to admit that it is sad that 40% of Singaporeans want an opposition voice, but they only get 1% of the seat in Parliament.
The Boliao
March 17th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
Japanese deflation?Lets look at solutions first then possible scenarios.HDB’s Mah will not allow the prices of his beloved public housing to drop.He lost $3 billion dollars last year.
Looks like you guys are good at ‘Wayanging’ even before you get voted into office.Can you guys do some piece on the ‘real issues’.
Stop giving yourselves pats on the back.Quality of PAP has gone down.
Ah Kow
March 17th, 2010 at 9:30 pm
@ Singapore Girl Next Door
Opposition cannot even find 4 people to fight GRC ah? How to be gahmen like that? Got so many opposition clown wat, how come 4 also cannot team together?
@ The Boliao
You live flat you wan HDB price to go down ah? You siow ting tong lah.
Bliss
March 17th, 2010 at 11:15 pm
Ah Kow
Please use your blain to tink a bit why oppo cannot find 4 people lah. Hint: What is scaring them off and who is buying them over.
Ah Kow
March 17th, 2010 at 11:57 pm
@Bliss
Where got scared? Got so many opposition hero want to fight SMC wat. Why all these champion cannot team together fight GRC?
Maria
March 18th, 2010 at 10:06 am
Opposition is full of crackpots and individualists. That’s why they can’t work as a team.
Singapore Girl Next Door
March 18th, 2010 at 7:06 pm
Dear Maria,
I couldn’t blame you if you think that way.
This happens to a lot of Singaporeans too specially if your only source of information is the TV.
I don’t mean it to be an insult, but I could easily turn the argument against the PAP and say that 80% of them to-date rode at the backs of their truly commendable colleagues thru the GRC.
Let me tell you a secret about the opposition in Singapore.
Our passion is not to oppose. But to make sure we weed out the pretenders in PAP, those who never really had an accomplishment to begin, and only had a seat because of the GRC.
But being PAP, they lay claim to the success of the past.
And think they can mess around and get away with it.
That is the sad thing about the whole political affair in Singapore to-date.
There are those in the PAP that I admire and respect.
And there are those who make me scream, pardon my Hokkien – who the $uck are you???
The Boliao PAP
March 19th, 2010 at 6:47 am
PAP is bigger wayang.Buggers get into parliament through GRCs and Gerrymandering.Not forgetting the 150 plus ranked media.PAP past was good, but now is pants!!!!!!!!!!
Too many jokers and incompetent people around.No wonder has to amend 3 bills with regards to Elections.So Super Insecure.
Quality has detoriated over the years.No more people with conviction and conscience.Hopefully the good people out there join a formidable opposition.
This election, GRCs will fall and minister heads will roll.Some many mess ups.So bad that the Father and Son don’t show up in Parliament anymore.Stand Up and Speak Up.
Ah Kow
March 19th, 2010 at 10:06 am
@The Boliao PAP, The Boliao, Singapore Girl Next Door, Bliss
Eh, 4 of you clown team together can fight GRC orredy wat.
You can promise resident that they vote for you, you won’t clear rubbish and won’t upgrade, confirm you make their flat price come down.
You show Maria lah that opposition can team together.
Singapore Girl Next Door
March 19th, 2010 at 3:17 pm
Ah Kow, I was waiting for you to say that
Action do speak louder than words.
So don’t worry. Come election time, you’ll see.
But first and foremost, I’m inviting you and others too to learn more about the opposition.
Of course the best way to learn about them is to….read the Internet.
Of course, don’t watch too much Singapore TV. That’s the weapon of the enemy lah!
If you want to know our side, don’t expect to get it from the enemy’s mouth lah!
Ayo, you people ha. Don’t be so gullible one, that’s why the gov’t always think foreigners are better.
So vote for us lah, this will prove once and for all that Singaporeans are discerning.
And we wouldn’t be running, and fighting this fight if we don’t think Singaporeans are discerning.
Singapore Girl Next Door
March 19th, 2010 at 3:34 pm
Ah Kow, to put things into context, both you and I are just pawns.
We both report to someone.
At the end of the day, you need to ask yourself why are you doing what you are doing right now?
Is it because you are part of the new government offensive against online dissidents such as myself?
Or is it because you are like any other ordinary Singaporean like myself who just want to effect change?
I hope you are the latter. So thank you and Vikram for the dialogue.
In the meantime, it begs the question why the gov’t is aggressive about increasing property market when statistics show that Singaporen median salary is decreasing. Both now compounds the problem of the HDB affordability.
It’s just a question. Sometimes it’s hurtful they’ll send someone like Ah Kow.
Hoping for Bliss
March 19th, 2010 at 7:47 pm
Singaporeans, esp Ah Kow, are in a very sorry state, blackmailed and held ransom by one party. Don’t vote them and their flat prices deflate. The worst is, there is no shortage of ’scholars’ willing to endorse the oppression. I wish their brains and creativity could be used in better ways, to make a difference to peoples lives for the better, not worse.
Kumar
March 19th, 2010 at 8:07 pm
Opposition has ruled one SMC for 20 years and another SMC for 10 years. Both have become worst and worst while their neighbour flourished. Only idiot will vote for the opposition.
Singapore Girl Next Door
March 19th, 2010 at 11:30 pm
Kumar, do you know why?
It’s because opposition MPs are not allowed to hold the purse strings of their own constituencies.
Only in Singapore.
But you said it yourself, why do they keep voting the opposition MPs for 10 and 20 years despite the aggressive push from PAP?
There must be something to it.
On the otherhand, other constiuencies never really had the chance to vote since the opposition had been bankrupted thru libel even before they had the chance to contest the seat.
So did anyone ever really voted most of the PAP. No, an overwhelming majority of our MPs are thru self-appointment.
Rodolfo
March 20th, 2010 at 12:55 am
Time and again these threads turn into a PAP vs opposition verbal war.
The PAP has to make many big mistakes before the opposition can even dream of taking over the government. And I can’t see PAP making that many big mistakes. Yet.
And I don’t think that only idiots vote opposition. Many clever people vote for the opposition. At the last election, we didn’t see many PAP wards getting more than 70% (A2) much less 75% (A1). Many garnered Bs and Cs. Wonder how these ex-scholars feel about these Bs and Cs.
Fact is there will always be many amongst us who will vote opposition. The PAP cannot create a credible internal check on itself. And the opposition has a real and meaningful role to play in local politics.
Ah Kow
March 20th, 2010 at 3:24 pm
@Singapore Girl Next Door
You opposition stooge ah? You report to who ah? Ah Kow no work for anybody. He ownself think one.
@Hoping for Bliss
Ah Kow no sorry state. He vote PAP. His ward sui sui wan. Only opposition ward sorry state.
@Rodolfo
Yah. Opposition know how to kao peh kao bu, but cannot do work. That’s why their ward all kiam chye wan.
hussein
March 20th, 2010 at 3:52 pm
Barack Obama won the US election with 52% of votes and that was call landslide. PAP with more than 60% of popular vote is still better than Obama. I also think no logic to vote for opposition.
Singapore Girl Next Door
March 20th, 2010 at 5:38 pm
This is not about the president.
This is about representation in parliament.
While the Democrats had an overwhelming win during the election, there was still substantive representation in the opposition.
But in Singapore, there is a mentality in the PAP that a single point advantage indicates the MANDATE and JUSTIFICATION to eradicate the opposition.
Representation, the true meaning of the word, doesn’t work that way.
I clamour for opposition because it is one of the hallmarks of a government that has the faith of the people.
The opposition does not mean the end of the PAP, although people like to exagerrate it as such and play into the fears of the voters.
Oppostion merely means the mechanism for us to hold our government accountable and responsible.
….because recently, they failed to live up to these requirements.
I admire the PAP. But the PAP of today is so different from the PAP of the past, you might as well call it a different party.
There are too many of them who merely piggy-back and enterd via back door thru the GRC.
Hence, they never understood and failed to appreciate the necessity to earn their constituency’s trust. But by being PAP by name, they think they can lay claim to the success of the past, so had nothing to prove, and are therefor think they are indispensible.
This accounts for the sorry state our current Parliament. Gone are the intellectual debates and discussions.
Instead, they are now replaced by mundane chit chat such as abs, fashion, minister haircuts, stairway steps, and slippy elevator seats.
Very few of them now are commendable. Because they never worked hard to win a Parliament seat. 80% of our ministers are thru self-appointment.
As a democracy, that’s very shameful.
This reminds me so much of the Philippines. It was once great like our country. But the government became complacent and they let the monkeys lose.
Where we are right now is where Philippines was exactly 50 years ago.
I’m doing my part not to let it slip any further.
As for some of you who gets paid SGD2.5k to talk cheap, that’s ok. Let me just remind you to do a better job since this is tax payer’s money.
Vikram Nair
March 20th, 2010 at 9:16 pm
Wow – I’m quite impressed by how a discussoin on Japanese deflation evolved into a discussion of political systems. It has certainly been interesting reading the exchanges.
Anyway, I’ll address the two main threads that seem to have emerged.
1. Singapore housing
The housing market in any country presents a tension between competing interests. Broadly, buyers would want lower prices and sellers would want higher ones.
In Singapore, property represents the biggest investment for most Singaporean families. As such, any measure that causes property prices to drop must be carefully thought through.
On the other hand, there should still be housing that is affordable for young couples wishing to start families.
In essence, we must balance the interest of flat owners who want to preserve their investment, such as Ah Kow, with those of the young people who wish to buy.
Obviously, balancing these two conflicting tensions is never easy. I think it is dangerous for the government to actively attempt to interfere with the market, although carefully leaning against the wind is usually a good idea. For example, if HDB were to rush to build a large number of flats now, these may only be ready in a few years, by which time, the market situation may be very different. If the market has started cooling by that point and this new supply comes into the market at that point, it may cause the housing market to crash.
I think the careful application of the cooling measures by the Government is an example of policy that leans against the wind without laying the seeds for a crash in the future. Likewise, the ongoing anti-speculation measures hopefully cut out the excesses at the moment by those trying to make the a quick buck, without creating any long term disruptions in the market.
2. Political systems
I am always cautious about direct comparisons between different political systems, but in so far as the issue is ministerial accountability, I actually think the Singapore model, which is based on the UK system, actually makes Ministers more directly accountable to the people than the US system.
In the US, the Executive (which is the equivalent of Singapore’s Cabinet) is actually appointed by the President. None of them have to win elections on their own. On the other hand, in Singapore, just like in the UK, every Minister is also an MP, which means he has to take part in elections and be directly accountable to the people.
In this regard, in the US, a President may not even win the popular vote (as happened during George Bush’s first term), but still get the power to appoint the entire cabinet and make Executive decisions, which includes going to war. On the other hand, in the Singapore system, every Minister must first win at his constituency before he can be considered for the position. He is also accountable to his people again at the end of every term.
As for opposition voices in Singapore Parliament, I guess the new reforms will guarantee more opposition voices in Parliament, whether or not they win in their constituencies. It will be interesting to see how the opposition parties make use of this opportunity
Jessica
March 20th, 2010 at 9:53 pm
Nice one Vikram!!! The PAP can clearly still do intellectual debates.
XWT
March 20th, 2010 at 9:55 pm
I think between Vikram and Ah Kow, the opposition got its ass kicked here.
Not So Blissful
March 21st, 2010 at 1:28 am
Housing
———-
Ya Jessica, surprise, surprise! But still, not quite as intellectual as you think (ie if you think deep enough, just a bit).
Firstly Vikram talks like Singapore housing is mostly privately developed. He seems to have forgotten it is public housing we are talking about. Buying at low prices & selling at high is balanced by market forces, ie if it is a freely competitive market. Given that the general Spore housing is solely the Govt’s business, it is down to them to set prices, there is no competitor to beat HDB’s prices. So saying it is dangerous for the Govt to interfere when all this time it is them who set prices, is nothing short of mind boggling.
Saying flat prices will come down when the Govt changes is to say the present high prices are aritificially inflated by none other than the present ruling party.
Finally if prices are kept high, so what? It is not as if flat owners can sell and live on the streets.
Political System
——————-
If only Spore’s system is practised like UK’s. Vikram is saying the model is similar but he is not telling us the big differences in implementation.
UK does not have such thing as GRC, and don’t say they are all Whites because they have a lot of different group minorities like Indians (called Asians), Muslims, Blacks, Chinese etc. London is well known to be cosmopolitan but even London does not has GRC.
UK’s election administration is independent, Spore’s is ??? (PMO’s office?)
UK’s political broadcast is given fair coverage to all parties. Spore’s???? I have never seen a political broadcast on Spore tv in my entire life.
UK media allows for alternative voices. Spore’s has to be licensed.
UK allows free distribution of political literature. Spore’s ??? or is the distribution of a group of not more than 3 or something like that???
Finally, UK does not has MM, SM and more than one DPM.
Singapore Girl Next Door
March 21st, 2010 at 1:07 pm
CURRENT STATE OF HOUSING IN SINGAPORE
Housing in Singapore is institutionalized and it’s far from being market-based.
Market-based means that it is the market which controls the supply. And since when did that happened in Singapore?
The exact definition really depends if we are in an election year or not.
Government intervention is a hallmark of the Singapore housing programme. We viewed it as generally good in the past. And when it is needed the most, they’d step back and claim that it is market-based.
Such is the case if the GLC developers are making a lot of money…..from foreigners.
But the decreasing salary in Singapore compounds the affordability problem….not for foreigners….but for Singaporeans.
It is easy to say it is “market-based” when things are not in favor of the government.
That is the sure-fire way to avoid responsibility.
So let us remind them that the GRC gave them backdoor access to the government, and their record-breaking salary has afforded them a life of luxury.
But those come with a price – accountability and responsibility.
In Singapore, that shouldn’t be too much to ask.
Singapore Girl Next Door
March 21st, 2010 at 1:23 pm
CURRENT STATE OF CONSTITUENCY REPRESENTATION IN SINGAPORE
Less than 20% of Singaporeans ever really voted over a REAL choice in their life because in the voting ballot, there’s only one name (or in the case of the GRC, there’s only one party to vote).
I’ll let you kick my butt the whole day. But this is not about who is the better debater.
There is a problem. And if we, Singaporeans, don’t acknowledge its existence, no one will try to solve it.
It goes without saying that our government is very benevolent. We Singapore do get it. We’ll build a monument for LKY or for the PAP. That’s how much we love them.
But saying that the PAP is the best government in the world, while it is true most of the time, doesn’t solve the problem.
Unfortunately, an overwhelming majority of next generation PAP leaders put most of their effort in merely reminiscing past successes, eventhough those are not their personal accomplishments to begin with.
Those were the legacy of the old PAP.
The new PAP needs to step-up!!!
If we need to put a bit of competition, let’s do that.
Singapore Girl Next Door
March 21st, 2010 at 1:39 pm
…and when I say competition, the one that is appointed by the PAP like Vikram mentioned, is not cut for the job.
The new system of appointing “opposition” rather than thru election hides the following facts from the voters -
- The length of service of the “opposition” is controlled by the government.
- The “opposition’s” participation in legislation is restricted
- The “opposition” have no say on the budget
- They do not represent a constituency
Needless to say, an opposition needs to be independent….like the one that gets voted.
Mark
March 21st, 2010 at 2:12 pm
Singapore Girl is right in pointing out that the government should be responsible for the current of the HDB affordability.
It is actually two problem in one – HDB price, and Singaporeans ability to pay (median salary).
HDB prices had been allowed to skyrocket in the past but it was also benchmarked against the median salary during that time.
The current govt however threw caution out of the window when foreign investment in Singapore property grew tremendously hot.
The lax immigration policy on the otherhand was deviced not only to lower business costs but also as buffer to a possible emerging property bubble.
All the while, everyone forgot that HDB prices have to scale appropriate with our salary. But that was outweighed by foreign purchasing power.
I think Singapore Girl wasn’t referring to lowering the property market and erroding the investments of other Singaporeans.
Instead, the people responsible for HDB prices had been ignorant to the guiding principles in setting prices.
Evidence suggests that Singaporean salary and purchasing power had been decreasing over the past 4 years, yet the increase in property market was allowed even at an accelarated rate.
I agree with her in that we now have a problem and accountability is needed more than ever.
Reminiscing past successes and denying problems exists instead of concentrating on addressing them will cause an ugly dent in the election track record of the PAP.
Tan
March 21st, 2010 at 2:19 pm
You opposition always talk nonsense.
HDB resale is based on market force. I am flat owner and don’t want my flat price in the resale market to come down because most of my CPF and saving pay for flat. If price go up, I make money. If government anyhow build flat, price go down, I lose money. Lucky people like Vikram understand.
The opposition party don’t care about flat owner. They just shout about high price and got no solution to protect flat value.
I think no need for opposition in Parliament. PAP should not have NCMP scheme. You are just a bunch of idiots and will waste everybody time.
Ling HK
March 21st, 2010 at 2:28 pm
The opposition is full of hypocrites. Now they complain about the NCMP scheme. As soon as they get a seat as NCMP, they will take it up straight away. Bunch of losers.
Ugly Truth
March 21st, 2010 at 3:12 pm
I hope the government does not see the recent backlash in its policies as mere political talking points.
Highlighting the problem and putting it into everyone’s attention does not mean you belong to the opposition.
The problem of low economic efficiency, decreasing salary, and increasing cost of living are all true and tangible.
As an economist, I’m deeply troubled by it.
And I’m afraid that just by saying this, I will be accused of being an opposition, and thus a hippocrite.
I come to expect more from our government, and not for it to accuse people like me as a loser.
Online Singaporean
March 21st, 2010 at 3:25 pm
Most Singaporeans are merely calling for sustainable HDB prices. Like some had pointed out, the increase in prices must be peg to Singaporean’s ability to pay for them.
Unfortunately, recently, prices had been pegged instead on foreigner’s ability to pay for them.
That is good for Singaporeans who already had a home, and wanting to sell them.
We are all happy for them. At the same time, there was NEVER a call to erode their property value.
What is merely asked is for the government to make sure HDB is still affordable, and there are many ways to do that and not simply by reducing prices.
First, we have to make sure that the property price increase is sustainable. Meaning, we need to stop speculation which is the major contributor to the price increase.
At the end of the day, there is no real investment value when there is speculation.
Second, we must go back to common sense and ensure that any further increase in price must be accompanied by increase in Singaporean’s median salary.
Third, there are many schemes aside from price reduction which can make HDB affordable. Tax reduction, subsidy, etc.
But none of these are being done because business is good for the GLC, yet the expense of many Singaporeans.
BB
March 21st, 2010 at 3:39 pm
A sudden increase in the property price does not equate to increase in investment value.
If we had anything to learn from the recent economic crisis, liquidity is more important than price.
Foreigners drove unsustainable property price increases.
I’m merely pointing out the fact and have anything against them.
The real problem is the problem of the extra property space in Singapore. THAT IS A BIG PROBLEM WHICH IS NOW STARTING TO FESTER.
People are talking about homes being used for investments but you have to wake up to the fact that demand has reached the ceiling and it was more driven by investment rather than the need to have a home.
This will turn into a liquidity problem sooner than we think and that will only mean a sharp decrease in prices.
Online Singaporean
March 21st, 2010 at 4:11 pm
So ladies and gentlemen, we can sing praises for the PAP all day long, and trash the opposition as much as we want.
But can we even make anyone responsible for the mess we’re in?
A sad moment in Singapore. A sad moment indeed.
Ling HK
March 21st, 2010 at 4:22 pm
Singapore Girl Next Door admitted she works for the opposition and reports to someone. I am sure there are other opposition stooges here too. They are just not as honest. And none of the stooges use their real name. The sad thing for Singapore is that these cowardly losers will now get a free ticket to parliament.
Jessica
March 21st, 2010 at 4:33 pm
Critics must be prepared to take criticism themselves. Otherwise they are hypocrites.
Singapore Girl Next Door
March 21st, 2010 at 5:29 pm
Dear Ling HK, Jessica, Vikram, and all others,
Yes, I do work for the opposition and being a part of their youth wing, I want to be as candid as I can be of that fact.
You can read my comments in other PAP and YPAP sites as well and I am just as upfront that I am from the opposition.
The YPAP had opened up a forum and I had invited myself to participate and I hope they do not mind
It is true that we in the opposition had a lot to learn, and for me, it is always good to start by talking with people who have different views.
Because we may work on opposite sides but we can all agree that we had something in common, and that is, we just want what is best for our communities and for Singaporeans in general, nevermind that we report to different people.
Now, whether I agree or disagree with anyone here does not matter. What I hope to accomplish in this process is that I become educated by people and maybe inherit their perspectives, and in return, I hope they’ll share my passion.
I am one of those who want to contribute to the efforts of the opposition. Eventhough this is unappealing to many people, I know that there will good out of it.
Once we are given the opportunity to do good, and make great accomplishments of our own, I hope we could eventually earn the trust of more Singaporeans.
I too admire the PAP because they were once the opposition. With convinction and dedication, they prevailed. Who said it wasn’t an uphill battle.
At the end of the day, it was because they had the desire to do good.
So do we. We are Singaporeans too afterall.
Best Regards,
Singapore Girl Next Door
Well said Singapore Girl
March 21st, 2010 at 5:33 pm
Your message resonates with the new generation of Singaporeans.The PAP is living on past success.Which does not equate to future success.The current PAP is full of opportunists.
My whole family(all four generations including formerand current civil servants) are voting opposition irregardless.My relative tells me that the two SWFs are continually eroding our reserves as we speak and are treating our cpf money like casino chips.
The MBS will fail.Just wait for Genting to file their reports and you will see.The HDB is a matrix, a cash cow for the PAP and their casino trips.A lot of statistics are lies.
My journalist buddy tells me the editors are the real devils.These guys try to do their job but it’s the editor devils who are in cahoot with thier political devil masters.
It’s time to rally the troops against the PAP devils.I am glad that there are young guys like you who see the light amidst all these darkness.The PAP devils have introduced gambling and casinoes and are welcoming prostitution to our beloved country.
The whoring of Singapore has come full circle.They are starting to slowly sell our assets to overseas buyers.The privatisation of Singapore will happen before your very eyes.
Now we have these jokers talking about Japanese deflation and deflecting the real issues.The wayang continues with the new generation of PAP members and ‘Leeders’.
Singapore Girl Next Door
March 21st, 2010 at 5:53 pm
Let me just point out that some folks use the “Singapore Girl Next Door” and pretend to be me.
It’s true that we all hide behind the safety of anonymity, but I hope people will try to understand other people’s perspective despite of who they are or what name they put.
Not everyone who praises the government is from PAP, the same way that not everyone who is critical of the government is from the opposition.
TT Sin
March 21st, 2010 at 6:05 pm
Redrawing boundaries.They hoodwink helllowwww!
If they can ‘cheat’ during elections,imagine all other facets of Singaporean life.PAP chialat.
Very insecure nincompoops.Gerrymander everytime when the heat is on.This was a former P65 PAP Mp website trying to ‘engage’ the public.When the two regular MPs started lsoing the debates they let their younglings write gibberish and inconsequential topics on Karunya,japanese deflation and on a Tarrantino movie.
For god sakes, you guys joined a political party and not some sunday book club.Enough with the Wayang and stick to the issues.
Does the writer live in public housing?What does he know about the process of getting a HDB flat?Is he and his ilk intending to purchase a HDB flat?Does he know that the majority of us are struggling?What does he know of our struggles?
maybe, instead of sipping Starbucks,he should consider having a teh si at my kopitiam.How?Game or not?I introduce you to my neighbourhood people and you can come listen to our gripes from the ground.
Singapore Girl Next Door
March 21st, 2010 at 6:13 pm
To “Well said Singapore Girl”,
Eventhough you affirm some of my views, I can’t share your candidness in accusing the PAP of being the devil and that “the whoring of Singapore has come full circle”.
My generation grew up admiring the PAP. We are proud of our country and acknowledge that the PAP is intrumental to our success as a state.
Nothing could be farther from the truth.
So trust me that the calling to serve the country is stronger than ever amongst our youth.
But there are different ways of serving one’s country.
While some young Singaporeans like myself chose the unconventional route, that does not mean we don’t love our country any less…..nor do we think that the PAP are the devils.
They were the source of our inspiration afterall.
Although at the same time, we believe that the current generation of PAP and government leaders fail to live up to our expectations.
Trust me, I’ve seen even the younger generation showing great passion, vigor and dedication to contribute to our government. But whether that is thru the convention route or otherwise, doesn’t matter.
We all just want to be inspired again.
Rodolfo
March 22nd, 2010 at 2:20 am
Personally, I think Singapore Girl Next Door is right about housing prices not being market based.
The government plays an instrumental role behind the scenes releasing and withdrawing supply into/from the market. It would appear the government is influencing prices to a significant (if not large) extent. Often, the market reacts to the government’s actions. It is hard for people not to pin significant responsibility on the government for the state of the property market.
Ah Kow
March 22nd, 2010 at 11:41 am
@Singapore Girl Next Door
Eh, you sound like nice person. Why you never join PAP ah? Better you know, can help people wan.
Not like opposition, kau peh kau bu only. Somemore ah, you team with siow ting tong like Well Said Singapore Girl Next Door, people think you also gila.
@Rodolfo
Yah lah, everything gahmen fault. Today never rain also gahmen fault.
Rodolfo
March 24th, 2010 at 4:43 pm
Ah Kow,
The government sells us everything from public transport (trains, buses and cabs) to food (Fairprice), housing and a whole host of other goods and services.
When we buy public housing, we buy from government. When we buy private, it is indirectly subject to price fluctuations arising from government supply of land.
So what is it that the government doesn’t directly or indirectly control? What is really left to true market forces? If it is a product of market forces and government policy/regulation, then of course the government has to share some responsibility.
Ah Kow
March 24th, 2010 at 10:32 pm
@Rodolfo
Yah lah, yah lah. If HDB price go up, opposition kao peh kau bu why so high, cannot buy. If HDB price go down, opposition kao peh kau bu, why so low, cannot sell. Opposition ah, never do work, but everything also kao peh kao bu wan.
Like that ah, Ah Kow also can do wat. If rain, can scold gahmen, why rain, so wet. If never rain, can scold gahmen, why never rain, so hot. Everything also scold gahmen.
12345
March 24th, 2010 at 10:56 pm
Everybody loves the rising property market.
But we must ensure that the rise must always be proportional to our purchasing power.
If not pegged to the median Singaporean salary, demand will go down, and if combined with our dwindling population, HDB purchases must be spiralling down more than ever.
But demand has instead increased because the hole left by Singaporeans were filled by foreigners, and this meant that our homes have increased in value more than ever.
If viewed at this perspective, the government is right that foreigners are beneficial to Singapore.
But where we are ultimately wrong is as far as price and demand in the property market is concerned, it is academic and mute since our government already has plans to phase out the public housing programme.
Mr X
March 24th, 2010 at 11:44 pm
12345,
I couldn’t agree with you more!!!!!
With all the talk that HDB supply and prices are market-based, PRs quotas have now been filled in majority of HDB estates, and the eventual need to break that quota, for it not, what else will fuel the property boom, it wouldn’t be long til they privatize HDB, or I thought they did already?
Dream On
March 25th, 2010 at 1:06 am
It will be privatisation by name only as with all their other businesses. It will be a Govt LINKED business. This is much, much more worse because this is the cleverest way to discharge any responsibility and profiteering. Do you think they will really let go of such a lucrative monopolised trade?
PAP and Gerrymandering
March 25th, 2010 at 4:11 pm
Don’t give them anymore ideas to milk us through all these ‘indirect taxes’.HDB is a cash cow for the PAP with the market prices and subsidies.The fact that there are subsidies show that it is unaffordable in the first place.And we don’t own the flats, we lease it at astronomical prices.
The PAP is smart, not only does it engineer and fix the elections with the redrawing of boundaries, it has PAP ex-members as NMPs to put on a wayang.Now it is using the ICA to give out citizenship like tissue paper so that the foreigners vote them back to power.
They should be beholden to the people and be responsible.Can’t believe that we are rewarding incompetance with bonuses and pay increases (PAP Gov,GIC and Temasek).
And now we have P65 where they talk about Japanese deflation.In other words, trying to justify te sky high subsidised houses.Do the P65 PAP Member writers live in public housing and own homes?
We are being “Gerrymandered” as we speak.The PAP MIW keep changing the rules to keep themselves in power.One day the people will rise and open all the closets.First starting with assets.Wonder why they changed inheritance tax rules so easily.
Lim
March 25th, 2010 at 5:13 pm
I hope HDB will privatize. Lot of people make money when HUDC privatize. Can en block sale and become millionair.
PAP and Gerrymandering
March 25th, 2010 at 7:06 pm
Lim please vote for PAP.I am sure many of their ilk are hoping that PAP can privatise.At the same time, they can raise their salary closer to god’s so that it can justify their worth.
Or are you thinking of migrating Lim?A lot of Singaporeans vote with their feet and the PAP knows that.That’s why it needs to artificially increase the quantity of people in Singapore and increase the GDP to justify their pay.
Ah Kow
March 25th, 2010 at 9:01 pm
@PAP and Gerrymandering
Eh, you vote with your feet lah. You opposition clown ah, never do anything, talk cock so much for what? Got no country want you is it?
Not so Blissful
March 26th, 2010 at 1:06 am
Ah Kow
How many private properties do you own besides your HDB hah? If you don’t own any pte prop, then you want HDB go up for what? Can you sell and live on the streets, no I mean camp in the park? Ah ya, talking about this, remember Yusof who sold his flat because he had exhausted all his savings when he became unemployed for 9 mths? later became homeless and camped in the park? But then, according to the journalist, Basu, it was his fault woh. You see, Yusof was offered a more expensive 4 bed flat which he could not afford. Don’t know how come Gahmen allow legal loansharks. They offer people any amount of money (mortgage) even people like Yusof who was jobless. When cannot pay, loanshark take back his flat lah. Don’t know Basu mean it was Yusof’s fault to lose his job or his fault to sell his flat or his fault to be offered the bigger, more expensive flat. But everything is the poor man or weaker man’s fault leh, not the Gahmen fault leh.
Long Live the PAP
March 26th, 2010 at 1:43 am
@Ah Kow
You are the shining example why I always vote for the PAP from one election year to the next.
Long live the PAP!
Rodolfo
March 26th, 2010 at 2:39 am
I certainly don’t agree with the Govt’s idea of market forces. The Govt’s idea of market forces is blatantly adulterated with a lot of indirect intervention behind the scenes. Maybe not quite the view as some of you. But certainly in the same light as the current REDAS President.
I am in no way anti-Govt. The Govt is good in many ways. But some of these statements that the Govt makes just seem divorced from reality.
PAP and Gerrymandering
March 26th, 2010 at 4:23 am
PAP Gerrymanders and Redraws boundaries every elections.It fixes its opponents.And it gets incompetent people into parliament through the GRC system.Singapore is void of good leadership like the old guard.
Maybe seriously PAP should consider getting people like Goh Keng Swee and Toh CHin Chye back into parliament.I am Singaprean and am not a clown.So you PAP member/supporter Ah Kow think I tallk cock?Where?Show me the evidence.
Don’t worry, I am not like your leaders who sue everyone for defemation.I seriously think that international press and magazines like the IHT,WSK,Economist,etc should leave Singapore.There is enough intelliegent newspapers and analysis through Mediacorp’s ST and Stomp.They provide brain nourishment.
In fact, PAP cadre member and world renowned economist Tan Ghee Kiap should re-write our economic model and conduct lectures abroad.He is born in Malaysia right?
We all want to know how much is the COST of a HDB flat.Not market forces,subsidies,etc factored in.And enough about the Japanese deflation.The PAP is suppose to find solutions if they want to justify their fabolous remuneration.
All these overrated Men in White are living in Ivory Towers.
Also not anti
March 26th, 2010 at 8:05 am
Rodolfo
The ‘market forces’ mentioned by the Govt is not your typical supply & demand market forces. It is more accurately, what the highest bid in the market is. Then the Govt follow the highest bidder in the market. Who wouldn’t do this if you are the one and only seller? The seller must be stupid not do capitalise on their unregulated sole exclusivity. If you are the one & only, do you need to be affected by supply & demand? You can forget about market forces as there is no competitors or price war.
Statements divorced from reality? Must be the dizziness from the height of their towers!
Is Singapore worth Defending?
March 26th, 2010 at 6:59 pm
This thought came into mind since the Foreigners Action Party only think about themselves and their elite selves.
PAP and Gerrymandering
March 27th, 2010 at 6:48 am
Is it because of the Gerrymandering?
Confused By Opposition
March 27th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
Do the opposition want HDB prices to go up or down? Don’t know why they all avoid this question.
Singapore Girl Next Door
March 27th, 2010 at 7:59 pm
Dear “Confused By Opposition”,
A very good question.
This was actually answered by few of the folks here but allow me to reiterate.
Simpley put – we welcome the rise in the property market but we have to be prudent and make sure that any rise must be pegged to our means so that it remains affordable.
Investment without liquidity was the formula of the financial crisis.
Throughout Singapore’s history, we’ve seen property prices go up and down but everytime it went up, almost always everyone in this island rejoiced including the opposition
But what is so different this time around?
Price increases in the past had always been pegged to the median Singaporean salary. Hence, the investment value rises proportionally to our ability to invest.
Home ownership in Singapore afterall is an investment.
But the recent surge in the number of immigrants saw property prices skyrocket. Statistics continue to show that supply is driven by the pockets of foreigners.
That’s not a bad thing.
Unfortunately, given the sharp decline in Singaporean salary and domestic purchasing power, one can now say that in Singapore, a home is pegged to the foreigner’s salary….and no longer to the Singaporean’s.
And despite this, the government had not stepped in.
It is easy for someone who already own a home to say that as far as property prices are concerned, the sky should be limit. But let’s not be quick to forget the hardship we went thru just to own one.
And so imagine how more difficult it will be for the next generation of Singaporeans.
We’re not saying we should give handouts nor should we prevent other Singaporeans from benefitting from their “investments”.
And we have done so in the past while ensuring Singaporeans then can STILL afford the roofs atop their heads.
But why are we changing the rules for the next generation of Singaporeans?
I have a simple answer – many of those who now run our government think they are no longer accountable to anyone, not even to their their constituencies.
Their constituencies never voted them to begin with.
Restoring their sense of responsibility and accountability shouldn’t be too much to ask.
But of course you can always correct me if you think I’m wrong
SingaShadow
March 28th, 2010 at 5:19 pm
Japan – I think it is a complicate economic problem with many different recommendations for intervention which further masks the root of the problem. One school of thought is that Japanese conglomerates are too strong in a negative way: banks refuse to let underperforming companies fail and purge the poison of the system. Good intentions turn bad eventually lead to a stagnant economy where deflation causes a decline in personal wealth too. If you believe in this view, the lesson to learn is that constant renewal is necessary to sustain long-term growth, and sometimes we even have to bite the bullet at seemingly apathetic policies.
Singapore – Many comments show frustration about the rising property prices. I think it’s worth to take a step back before putting all the blame on the government. Seriously, I don’t think there is any motivation for the government to let the prices go out of hand (given that the elections are nearing). I think we have to realize that if we leave the resale prices to market forces, then we can’t blame the authorities for not intervening. If we choose to intervene, we also run the risk of distorting prices (which is why free market capitalism has some advantage over a totally centrally planned economy). Speculation is called so not for nothing, so I think we have to accept that noone really knows what is happening exactly. Putting the role of public housing in context, I think it’s still best to intervene trying to curb speculation (despite how imperfect the plan might be), then adjust the plan as the understand the situation better hopefully.
Singapore Girl Next Door
March 28th, 2010 at 5:49 pm
SingaShadow,
The government made a conscious decision with regards to the following despite the increasing demand and most HDB estates reaching their PR quota -
* Increase HDB supply by less than 2% despite an increase in household (Singaporean, PR, foreigners) by 12%
* Move to BTO rather than BTS which increases delay in availabiliy by + 1-2 years.
The government has a decisive hand in the property market, and the population and demand statistics are more than what you need for hindsight.
But what this is really all about is maximizing investments in the IR, Casinos, and all the private property build up.
Personally, I would’ve welcomed the surge in prices if it is local Singaporeans mostly driving the demand.
But in economic terms, do you think it is sustainable if it is “foreign investment” behind the build up?
And all that investment are leverage to begin with, and with whose money?
Let’s not forget too that most of the sands we imported in the last 4 years are illegal.
This is not just talking points.
Regards,
SGND
Vikram Nair
March 29th, 2010 at 1:45 pm
To SingaShadow:
Thanks for you perceptive comments. A good friend of mine also sent me this interesting article by Andy Xie which blames a large part of the deflation on the aging population: http://english.caing.com/2010-03-15/100126807.html. I guess constant renewal in the economy has at least two elements. One is, as you suggest, allowing underperforming companies to fail and the other would be to ensure there is enough youth and energy in the country to build up the new businesses that will replace the old ones. I think Singapore’s policy on bringing in foreign talent and capital is probably one attempt to enhance this renewal process.
To SingaShadow and Singapore Girl Next Door (SGND):
I enjoyed your exchange on the singapore property market. SGND, it looks like your overall aim for the Singapore property market is very much the same as what I would want. I agree that gradually rising prices are probably good for everyone, although property must be kept affordable.
In general, the resale market is determined by market forces as SingaShadow explains. I agree that the government may control the supply it releases into the market, but once this supply is out there, its future value will be determined by the resale market. If the government releases too much supply in one year, in may affect the resale market several years down the road (since there is a time lag before these properties may be sold). As such, releasing more supply in response to a surge in demand today may not be sensible because of the time lag before this supply hits the market. Supply should only be increased in response to anticipated demand, and I think that is exactly what HDB is trying to do now. It is almost impossible for anyone for forecast demand perfectly, be they government or private sector economists, but one has to make decisions with the best information available.
On the other hand, I agree with SingaShadow that in the case of public housing, where the intention is also to keep housing affordable, the most effective intervention in a market that appears to be rising wildly is to curb speculation. This is effective because its impact is immediate. If the time for resale of a flat is delayed, it means people are going to be less able to flip it. Likewise, if one is required to live in the flats one has purchased with a subsidy, then one is going to have more difficulty renting it out to make a profit while living elsewhere. The key difference between these measures and flooding the market with more supply is that these measures are short term measures which will probably not leave a long term impact on the market. The long term supply of HDB flats should be based on long term projections, and not knee jerk responses to a rising market.
Thanks for your thoughtful comments
Ah Kow
March 29th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
@Singapore Girl Next Door
Eh, you better join PAP lah.
You also say property price rise good, but opposition ah, cannot make property price rise. Only PAP can. Everyone in Island flat price go up, but opposition ward ah, flat price come down. You wan like dat ah?
Some more, you want to team with gila clown like PAP and Gerrymandering ah?
@PAP and Gerrymandering
Yah lah, yah lah. Ah Kow live ivory tower. His flat high floor wan.
I think you live low floor flat in opposition ward near rubbish chute. Then because opposition ward never clean rubbish, you everyday smell rubbish, brain also become rubbish. No your fault lah.
You vote PAP ah, your rubbish will clean.
PAP and Gerrymandering
March 29th, 2010 at 5:08 pm
Cost of a HDB flat?The unadultured version?
Not so Blissful
March 29th, 2010 at 8:58 pm
SingaShadow
It seems your idea of Govt intervention in resale prices of HDB is very different from mine which is:
PRICES OF NEW FLATS PEGGED TO THAT OF RESALE FLATS.
How does this intervention help or aim at curbing rising prices? If anything it helps spiral rising prices further up.
People are asking for ONE simple gesture from the Govt:
Work out prices of new flats according to the cost of building them, not peg them to re-sale flats. As a state provider of public housing, there is absolutely no reason for HDB to peg prices of new flats to the re-sale market. This is equivalent to asking for a price that the highest bidders in the market can pay.
Problem is, until now no one ever knows the real cost of a flat in Spore. Private companies cannot get away with this as there are auditors but HDB is not private you see. It is a very serious problem as we have a system that is fully open to abuse. Its akin to a system that allows the most powerful to get away with murder. Please correct me if I am wrong but its gotta be convincing.
Singapore Girl Next Door
March 29th, 2010 at 10:49 pm
Market speculation is beside the point.
There was a huge increase in population.
There was a spike in the demand.
But HDB only planned for less than 2% increase in supply, and switched to the “Build to Order” model at the same time.
And this is when the property prices are already at their peak.
It does not require an economist to figure out what’s going on.
The surge in demand and “foreign investment” are more than enough to get the prices to go up.
It’s difficult to put into perspective why HDB wanted to “jack it up” even further.
PAP and Gerrymandering
March 29th, 2010 at 10:50 pm
I ask again, cost of a HDB flat?The unadultured version?
Absolutely spot on ‘Not so blissful’.As a state provider of public housing, they should sell them at cost or below cost with a subsidy.
We should start a movement where the actual cost of a flat be revealed.Then at least we would know how much the HDB has profiteered over the years.There might also be leaks of these profits to cover the losses of the two SWFs, Temasek and GIC.
You are absolutely correct.Let’s see whether Mr Nair can give us the cost of a HDB flat.Do the P65 PAP Member writers live in public housing and own homes?
PAP and Gerrymandering
March 29th, 2010 at 10:57 pm
Dear Singapore Girl Next Door?
Jack it up even further to cover the losses and the draw down of our reserves.This is not speculation but a fact.I am certain that they increased the foreigners to dilute the local Singaporean voters so that an opposition does not come into power and do an audit of the PAP government.
Even the late PAP member President Ong had no clue of our reserves.And Ho CHing has gone on public saying that they are family jewels.Do they reserves belong to Singapore or to a family and their friends and associates?
Considering the fact that both SWFs are still posting losses, I forsee more foreigners coming in driving up not only the real estate market but everything as well.
Why do we and the future generation pay for the mistakes of a family and their party?These guys gerrymander their way into parliament.They redraw boundaries and change the rules.
The CPF is a huge mess.Redemption of these funds will never hapen as there would be a ‘bank run’of epic proportions.
Continue to see more bond issues by the two SWFs to cover interest paymentsfor their folly purchases.And more TLC and GLC companies sold to foreign entities.The invasion has already begun.
Not so Blissful
March 30th, 2010 at 12:43 am
SGND
You said: “The surge in demand and “foreign investment” are more than enough to get the prices to go up.
Are you referring to re-sale market? As I understand, foreigners are not allowed to apply for new flats.
You said “It’s difficult to put into perspective why HDB wanted to “jack it up” even further.”
If you are referring to re-sale flats, its so that they can peg higher prices to new flats which I objected.
Do you agree that PRs are allowed to buy our public housing in the re-sale sector? Our resource (land) is already so limited.
Singapore Girl Next Door
March 30th, 2010 at 1:46 pm
Dear “Not so Blissful”,
If there’s a resale market, it is highly dependent on a Singaporean’s ability to sell a propety before buying into a new one.
But a 2% re-supply (leading to higher price) and a BTO model (longer lead time) forces many Singaporeans to rethink purchasing a new home.
That limits the resale market supply, driving their prices up, and since new flats are pegged higher than the resales prices, you are right that we are all screwed.
Sometimes it’s tempting to blame the property agents, but HDB is the one who has the benefit of hindsight given they are the gatekeeper of the entire property market data.
At first glance, like many here suggested, it may make sense for HDB to limit supply to counter speculation.
But no decent government will address speculation using HDB supply when more effective tools are available like keeping tax and interest rates relatively higher for “investor owners”.
I refuse to believe that our government is stupid, in fact, many more effective fiscal/monetary measures are already in place to counter speculative investments, but it is dumbfounding to put HDB supply into the mix.
So no, unfortunately, I can’t agree that we should limit HDB ownership to citizens only when we know that the problem can be addressed using more effective fiscal/monetary tools.
The limit in HDB supply, more than anything else, is a way for our government to put their hand into the market to maximize our investments in the IR, Casinos, and all property build up….and far from being a tool to counter speculation.
In a way, I tried my best not to say it directly, but I believe it is our government who has a hand in the speculation….they are the investor to begin with. But given the financial crisis and the way things are turning sour, they are trying their best to cut losses, and keeping a high foreign population is one of the easiest way out of it.
It surely is easy to criticize without offering alternatives.
If I can share a solution, it is more complimentary rather than an alternative to what our government is already doing – we should invest in our people as much as we have invested in buildings.
That “self-reliance re-training” thing just doesn’t cut out.
HK Lim
March 30th, 2010 at 3:56 pm
SGND: Everybody has hindsight ,and everybody can be smart with hindsight. Vikram is saying that you should build based on forecast demand, not hindsight. You can’t plan future based on hindsight. That is like driving a car by looking out of rear view mirror only. Sure accident.
PAP and Gerrymandering
March 30th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
HK Lim,
In other words, the forecasting of our PAP leaders has failed miserably under the Lee Hsien Loong leadership.They obviously have no hindsight as they still need an octogenarian forecaster to pan out what might happen in the near future.How about the distant?
Share your forecasts my dear HK Lim.Is the author forecasting a Japanese deflation?What is his and his fellow PAP members’ solution?
HK Lim
March 30th, 2010 at 5:25 pm
PAP and Gerrymandering,
Hitler had a final solution. Maybe you can vote for him.
PAP and Gerrymandering
March 31st, 2010 at 1:49 am
Is Hitler or a Hitler like person standing as a candidate in the coming Singapore elections?Care to elaborate?
I am not aware of this final solution.What are your forecasts HK Lim, mind you, I am not looking for hindsight or gut feeling.
Singapore Girl Next Door
March 31st, 2010 at 3:22 am
Hindsight. What’s in a word?
Hindsight is also the ability to recognize future possibilities based on past data….in HDB’s case, they have unmatched capacity for hindsight given they have all the possible data on the local property market.
Hindsight is a requirement of forecasting. How else can we infer the significance of a prediction?
So I think we are referring to the same thing
HDB is in the position to know better than most of us. And despite the existence of more appropriate tools fiscal and monetaty to address speculation and bubbles, it went ahead with cutting the HDB supply.
It sounds stupid only if you think they’re cutting supply to address speculation across the entire property market.
Because if it is, why did the market for private condos and apartments surged anyway?
The reality is – cutting HDB supply is not to address speculation. It’s geared towards maximzing government investments in IR, casinos and other property build up.
Do I have to say so directly?
In Singapore, there are only two choices – HDB and something else. And our government is heavily invested on that something else. So whatever they’ve been doing is geared towards getting the most out of that something else.
Generally, I believe they are doing a good thing. But they must be prepared to readjust when they hit obstacles not in the forecast radar.
Ah Kow
March 31st, 2010 at 10:09 am
@HK Lim
Aiyah, HK Lim, this one ah, Singapore opposition you know. All stupid wan, how to know history?
@PAP and Gerrymandering
Eh, you also siow like Hitler wat, maybe you run next election. You can promise people, you got final solution, everything also you can forecast.
@Singapore Girl Next Door
You sure or not gahmen cut supply? Ah Kow go everywhere also see construction. Ah Kow house nearby got field also now wan to build some more flat.
PAP and Gerrymandering
March 31st, 2010 at 9:21 pm
Hi Ah Kow.
Out of curiosity, are you one of those card carrying PAP members who ‘volunteers’ at Grassroots?You are sound like the guys in my negihbourhood RC.
I try to have a decent conversation with them on policies and Singapore Society.And when my views are not pro PAP, they always say opposition rubbish.
But is the Opposition Government?Isn’t the PAP messing things up?These new CPF rules further give evidence that our reserves are dwindling due to the catostrophic losses of our 2 SWFs.
But don’t woryy.It’s your children and their children who are going to pay for this folly.Not you.
Ah Kow
April 1st, 2010 at 9:38 am
Yah, Ah Kow got do grassroot work. Not like you opposition clown, whole day sit internet talk cock only.
Singapore Girl Next Door
April 1st, 2010 at 10:11 am
Dear Ah Kow,
I hope you are right that they are building more HDBs
But I don’t see that much construction from where I am.
If there are any build up, I see them around Novena, Orchard, Newton, Toa Payoh etc. But all of these are private.
So if you see construction right outside your window, are you sure those are HDBs?
You know, let me share with you some insights I learned from my own students (I finally got the teaching position I applied for recently
This is my first job. Hehe)
So we were talking a bit about economics and one asked me why school fees are increasing, to which I aptly remarked “I don’t know” because sharing the answer inside the classrom wouldn’t be appropriate.
I told them something about variable cost to get them into thinking but I guess my explanation did not satisfied one of them who asked a follow-up question: why are we nonchalant about tens of billions of loss in gov’t investments but tightfisted when it comes into few millions of surpplus in school budgets?
I guess it begs the question why in the current economic climate we invest so much in high-risk endevours such as buildings but invest so little in the education of our people.
I know it must be part of the gov’t’s fiscal policy to increase expenditure and invest into IRs, Casinos, MRT, and they surely know what they are doing.
But when I look into my students, after graduation, many are left with no choice but to be in poly. Those “lucky” enough gets a chance in a uni.
It’s tempting for many to say that aptitude is to blame, but only after being a teacher for few months, I feel that if we invest more into all of them, and not selectively nurture a few base on a meritocratic basis, we can solve many of the problems we face as a nation.
Productivity, efficiency, competitiveness, salary, and the ability to create opportunities for onesself, it does start when we invest into people as much as we invest into buildings.
’til next time, Ah Kow.
Regards,
SGND
Rodolfo
April 1st, 2010 at 5:36 pm
The govt did much to invite foreigners to Singapore and increased demand significantly. And either deliberately (or otherwise) did not increase property supply proportionately to accomodate this increase. If I recall correctly, just earlier in this decade we had 4 million people in Singapore. Latest is 5.5 million. Did property supply increase anywhere close to 38% over that period?
This is just a simple comparison. Of course there are other factors at play. But the govt cannot go around increasing demand in this way and keep its supply taps closed and claim all this is due to market forces. It’s plainly pulling wool over our eyes.
Rodolfo
April 1st, 2010 at 5:43 pm
Another contributor quoted Vikram as saying that construction should be based on forecast demand. That is correct. It is absolutely the job of the govt to do that.
We see all sorts of statistics sliced this way and diced that way by the govt. But does it answer the question of whether the govt increased supply adequately to meet the increase in demand?
Rodolfo
April 1st, 2010 at 5:52 pm
Say if property supply was not increased adequately and prices rise.
Then the govt releases supply at the new increased land prices a little bit at a time.
And some contributors subscribe to the govt’s view that this is “market forces”?
And some contributors say the govt has nothing to do with it?
T T Sim
April 1st, 2010 at 7:10 pm
Ask the PAP Economist Cadre from LKY SPP Tan Ghee Kiap.PAP Market Forces.
The Demand will always far outstrip the PAP supply.It has to.That’s the only way PAP,the MND and HDB can maximise the value of the landbank.
Money moves from the left pocket to the right pocket.But this time, because of the dwindling reserves and massive losses of the 2 SWFs, we are in an unusual creditor and debtor relationship with a host of different entities.
Does the government know what are the reserves?Or what is left of the 2 SWFs or the remaning currency reserves at MOF?
Tuition fees have gone up.Levies for workers will go up.S&C charges increase.Cigarette taxes increase possibility.Electricity charges going up.Etc.All from our hands and we are feeding their mouths.
And they have the audacity to increase their pays by 8.8%.Did our wages or inflation grow by 8.8%?Did the economy grow by 8.8%?Did our Gross Happiness Index growby 8.8%?
I call for all the above to be answered by the author, Ah Kow,Maria,Kumar and Hussein or any of the other PAP members.I have written to the Economist and I am still wainting for his response.This was way before his forum.
Not so Blissful
April 1st, 2010 at 10:19 pm
Vikram
Actually what are you trying to tell us with your Jap story? That what is happening in Spore is normal? Is this how the PAP runs the country? Look at this other country and look at that other country?
The Japs had their good times from their many innovations and world leading international brands when the economy was doing well. Inflation & deflation according to the economy in Jap is only natural (authentic market forces). This is what many are saying here if I get them correctly.
Are you saying the Jap’s experience of deflation shows it is good for the Sg Govt to intervene in order to prevent the deflation? So it is not down to market forces and this is dangerous. If it is, what are you trying to tell us? That Sg economy is doing so well that there is inflation in property prices? We have just come out of a recession aren’t we?
Not so Blissful
April 1st, 2010 at 10:31 pm
“Opposition is full of crackpots and individualists.” – Maria, Mar 18th
Hey, these are what we need. Not followers and boring scholars who toe the lines to please.
Crackpots & individualists are usually characteristic of thinking outside the box. Creativity and coming up with something different cannot be possible from followers or people who lap up commands.
Rodolfo
April 2nd, 2010 at 1:05 am
We don’t pretend to know everything or have all the answers. Nor do we claim the govt is all bad. We can and should expect to be fed statistics that support the govt’s argument. At times there is a real need to take an objective look at govt policy and just ask why.
Just look at the ridiculous argument the govt gave to justify pay raises in the civil service – that it is a small cut of GDP and that it is nothing compared to top financial sector executives. Even then it was unbelieveable that the govt talk about their remuneration like some kind of commission of GDP and better still compare themselves with financial cowboys. Would the govt still use this kind of reasoning after all that has happened? I agree that civil servants should be paid well. But surely with all those scholars in positions of power and influence they could come up with better reasons than those.
HK Lim
April 2nd, 2010 at 1:34 am
So Rodolfo, what is your reason for giving high civil servant pay? What benchmark will you use?
Singapore Girl Next Door
April 2nd, 2010 at 12:26 pm
I, for one, support the idea that civil service pay must be comparable to the private sector.
And if our top government executives perform well, they must be rewarded comensurate to their performance….just like in the private sector.
But remember too that in the private sector any position with high renumeration, there is an equivalent expectation of responsibility and accountability. Failure to exercise them is tantamount to a lay off, and in most cases, if found negligent, errant officers are sent to court.
The problem in Singapore is that our government wholeheartedly embraced the idea of pegging salaries to the private sector but shrugs off the idea that accountability and responsibility must be pegged the same.
Many MPs fail to meet the minimum expectations of their job, and in many cases, mismanaged our government. They like to be paid well but without a sense of accountability, can we fire them?
What we have instead are employees who demand the highest renumeration but none of the accountability.
Singapore Girl Next Door
April 2nd, 2010 at 12:37 pm
Yah yah yah….don’t vote them on the next election.
But in the private sector, we don’t wait for 4 years to lay off an employee who also had the power to scare, bankrupt and put to jail all his replacements.
Ah Kow
April 2nd, 2010 at 5:28 pm
@Not so Blissful
You which opposition party ah? Maybe you go IMH can recruit.
@TT Sim
Maybe you can join Not So Blissful party. She wan crackpot like you.
@SGND
Yah lah, you teacher so you wan high civil service pay. Then you also can make money.
Singapore Girl Next Door
April 2nd, 2010 at 9:29 pm
Ah Kow, you’re funny
I can’t speak for everyone, but I think we teachers are getting along just fine.
T T Sim
April 3rd, 2010 at 7:29 am
Ah Kow.
Why do you call me a ‘crackport’?You disagree with my post?Let’s debate it then.If you see fault in my post, address it and not call me a çrackpt’.
Don’t worry.I have no intentions to use the defamation route.The PAP economist has yet to respond to me so I was hoping the Author or other PAP members rebut me.
Elections are coming.It’s not going to be a one channel ride anymore.The PAP has called for a cooling off period.Isn’t it so obvious that they are insecure.And the need to open the electoral rolls to addmore New Citizens from Overseas as an increased voting block for them.
I learnt a new word.And it sums up the PAP.Gerrymanderers.
T T Sim
April 3rd, 2010 at 7:38 am
PAP and Gerrymanderers.
Thanks for introducing me to a new word.Sums things up.Wonder the P65 guys understand what is the meaning of Gerrymandering.
Don’t worry.This website will close shop soon.
T T Sim
April 3rd, 2010 at 7:41 am
Astroturfing.
Please don’t accuse me please.I am for real.Please contact me and let’s discuss what I have wrote.If you can get me PM Lee,Tharman and Economist Tan please.
I would like to meet them.How do I go about it Vikram?Any way?Can you help me?I have been to Teck Ghee and was told by the helper, whom I presume is a PAP member, that it is an irrelavant question.
2 SWFs?
Ah Kow
April 3rd, 2010 at 12:28 pm
Aiyah, TT Sim, you think PM Lee boh liao like you ah? He whole day talk cock sing song with you ah, how he do work? He must take care Singapore you know, so teacher like SGND can get high pay.
You buay song with PAP ah, can go see opposition MP, tell them kau peh for you in Parliament.
If Opposition also never listen to you ah, you can go IMH kau peh to doctor. You say you buay song with PAP because PM Lee never talk cock with you. IMH doctor sure listen wan, maybe give you medicine also.
Some more, maybe you can see Not So Blissful there, can join her opposition party.
T T Sim
April 3rd, 2010 at 5:26 pm
Ah Kow.
Funny that this is the typical answer I get from MPS sessions.Looks like the PAP has a habit of sweeping things under the carpet.I really give up.This is the problem with GRCs,Gerrymandering,etc.
We are finished with this sort of Over Rated ‘paper’ talent.Unbelievable.Let’s become a SAR of China.It’s a lot easier that way.
Time to pack my bags and look for greener pastures.Thank you one and all.And Thank you PM Lee and PAP for your Multi Billion Dollar Efforts.
Don’t bet on the casinoes to Bail you Out.
T T Sim
April 3rd, 2010 at 5:32 pm
The P65 website its Where they talk and all Singaporeans Listen.There is no 2 way channel of communication.If you do not see them eye to eye on issues they will label you as
1.Crackpot
2.Accuse you of talking and singing ‘cock’
3.Want you to join the Opposition and ‘kau peh’ in Parliament
4.Or go to IMH
This is disgraceful behaviour coming from the incumbents.
HK Lim
April 3rd, 2010 at 8:03 pm
TT Sim: how come you posted again after saying you give up?
sgcynic
April 4th, 2010 at 2:57 am
A dying site with few posts and writers getting hammered by “anoymous hordes online”. Shows the desperation of those in power to send in the dogs to argue nonsense.
T T Sim
April 4th, 2010 at 3:34 am
Sg Cynic
Are you calling me a dog?Are you Sinha Sekhar?
sgcynic
April 4th, 2010 at 1:22 pm
TT Sim,
Did you feel that you are arguing nonsense? Did I accuse you? Why take it personally?
Ah Kow
April 5th, 2010 at 11:45 am
Eh, TT Sim, I think sgcynic also anti-PAP team you know. Now he score own goal oreddy.
sgcynic
April 5th, 2010 at 2:11 pm
Ah, here’s the dog :>
Ah Kow
April 5th, 2010 at 4:15 pm
@sgcynic
Yah lah. Ah Kow white dog, TT Sim mad dog.
But you ah, pussy cat, scared to put name. You better careful, cat come into dogfight ah, sure die wan.
sgcynic
April 5th, 2010 at 5:09 pm
Kow, I did not call TT Sim any names. You did
Ah Kow
April 5th, 2010 at 5:18 pm
@sgcynic
Aiyah, don’t jealous lah sgcynic. Ah Kow got call you name also wat. you wan some more ah?
sgcynic
April 5th, 2010 at 5:47 pm
Kow,
You in grassroots? Under PA, helping the PAP MP-adviser? Like this? LOL
Ah Kow
April 5th, 2010 at 6:14 pm
No lah sgcynic. Hantam clown like you hobby only.
sgcynic
April 5th, 2010 at 6:54 pm
Hmm, so that’s how PAP reacts to criticisms: be “deaf to all criticisms” and send the dogs out. LOL. No wonder, there is a growing number of dissenting voices disgusted with the incumbent, who feel that there is no genuine dialogue nor attempt to listen to the people.
Ah Kow
April 5th, 2010 at 7:08 pm
I got listen to you wat. That’s why I know you clown.
sgcynic
April 5th, 2010 at 9:16 pm
Yes, your earlier posts said it all. Does the PAP think they can continue to wag the dog? LOL
HK Lim
April 6th, 2010 at 2:07 am
Sgcynic, I think the PAP’s dog has kicked your sorry ass. You opposition jokers make off topic comments and expect to be taken seriously? LOL
sgcycnic
April 6th, 2010 at 9:21 am
Yes, I believe Hitler had a dog too. LOL
Nuts
April 7th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
Eh? Where the fruitcake go? How come his post got deleted ah?
pimpmaster
April 7th, 2010 at 7:24 pm
They accuse the opposition as nothing but crackpots.
So I wonder what could the PAP have possibly done so that 40% of Singaporeans will prefer crackpots over them in the ballots.
Something to reflect on.
pm
April 7th, 2010 at 7:30 pm
They accuse the opposition as nothing but crackpots.
So I wonder what could the PAP have possibly done so that 40% of Singaporeans will prefer crackpots over them in the ballots.
Something to reflect on…..
pm
April 7th, 2010 at 7:49 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjC_QLvgI6k&feature=player_embedded
Housing problem? What housing problem?
You have to see the link above. We Singaporenas have to be thankful for being so lucky.
Rodolfo
April 7th, 2010 at 11:18 pm
The PAP knows better than to paint the opposition with one broad stroke and brand them all as crackpots.
Singaporean
April 8th, 2010 at 3:25 pm
Mah Bow Tan said it is “not true that HDB resale prices have outstripped income growth”, and supported his statement with statistics.
Now, see how Hazel Poa, who is now with the Reform Party, and who obviously knows the tricks of the trade in statistics, debunk his statement in one simple blog post.
By changing the base year, she proves that “Resale prices [went] up by 45.6%, while median household income is up 21.3%.”
“Choosing a suitable base year to support your conclusions is quite a useful trick that we should all learn.”
See: hazelpoa dot blogspot dot com
(http://hazelpoa.blogspot.com/)
Can P65 please ask Minister Mah for his comments ?
Singaporean
April 8th, 2010 at 3:48 pm
Or, perhaps Minister Mah can fall back on his old position that he was caught “off guard” ?
Rodolfo
April 8th, 2010 at 4:19 pm
Statistics can be sliced and diced and inconvenient bits can be left out. We need to ask questions and not accept the Govt’s view as gospel truth.
Singapore Girl Next Door
April 9th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
The problem with the current generation of PAP leaders, if one has to summarize, is a problem with perspective.
Certainly, there are Singaporeans who are spoilt and will simply complain about anything if they can’t get everything.
But at the same time, there are Singaporeans who are hit hard and have real concerns.
On the other hand, it goes without saying that the PAP generally is doing a good job. But its fault lies in its habit of conveniently putting everyone on the same basket and sweeping everything under the rug.
PAP, in its current state, simply can’t differentiate reality from noise.
While it encourages that we address these in a forum and concensus, it is proactive in punishing those that are very critical.
Prison is still fresh in my memory.
So how else can we air criticisms without being a subject of retribution than being anonymous online?
East Asian values, if there’s anything to it, is we value personal safety over dissent. But if we must have an avenue to air grievances without being accused as dissenters, the internet is the only option.
But in the internet, we are demoted to the venom horde astroturfer opposition crackpot status associated with the very destruction of Singapore and possible relegation of every female Singaporean as maid to another country.
This has nothing to do with prosperity…but a roof on top of my head without sweating blood just to have one.
Singaporean
April 9th, 2010 at 2:37 pm
Look at Lucky Tan’s latest chart, going back 20 years, using 1990 as the base year.
It’s even more shocking.
“Mah Bow Tan : We don’t fudge the numbers Part 2″
Diary of A Singaporean Mind
http://singaporemind.blogspot.com/
Rodolfo
April 9th, 2010 at 6:01 pm
I agree with the Govt’s policy of inviting foreigners to reside and work in Singapore. I accept that foreigners do many jobs we Singaporeans do not want or just cannot do. I also accept that with these foreigners, we sometimes get growth in some industries we cannot otherwise achieve on our own steam.
But what really bothers me is I am not sure if the Govt has increased (or intends to increase) the supply of residential property adequately and in proportion to the increase in new residents. I would expect that the number of foreigners might be subject to some degree of volatility depending on the local and global economic conditions. And because of this volatility, the Govt might not want to increase the property supply in the same proportion as the increase in new residents. Instead I read repeated statements about price trends in the past X number of years.
I still have this one simple question – what has the Govt done (or intends to do) to increase the supply of property to accommodate so many new residents? All these statements about price trends don’t seem to be so relevant given that the economic and population structure has changed so much since 1999.
Rodolfo
April 9th, 2010 at 6:15 pm
A few years ago when corporations were setting up shop in Singapore in large numbers and office rents were rocketing upward, the Govt acted very quickly and injected a whole slew of alternative office sites to satisfy the increased demand and bring prices back down and keep Singapore competitive. And rightly so. Office prices have certainly softened significantly.
And what about residential property?
pingpong
April 10th, 2010 at 10:26 pm
what abt this cash over value thingo and increasing minimum deposit percentages? It makes life even tougher for the average Singaporean and doesn’t do much to deter the bona fide investor
It’s going to take a lifetime to save a deposit.
Ah Kow
April 11th, 2010 at 4:30 pm
@ Singaporean, Rodolfo
Eh, house price and income two also go up siok wat. Ah Kow work and got flat, so he two side also make money.
Ah Kow say oreddy wat, you dowan flat price to go up, just go opposition ward. Can ask Hazel Poa go and do chart with opposition ward, confirm house price never go up like pap ward.
Maybe reform party even better, can make your house price go down lagi fast because got no experience wan. Then can show chart, opposition ward, house price all come down faster than income, not like PAP ward.
Destroy house price very easy wan, just vote opposition, they do for you.
@pingpong
Eh, you no money don’t go and buy resale flat lah. then no need worry abouy COV.
sgcynic
April 11th, 2010 at 7:23 pm
House price and income two also go up siok, former go up much faster siok. With same income can only afford kennel siok. Master Mah liar siok, scratch dog behind ear also siok
Rodolfo
April 11th, 2010 at 11:11 pm
Ah Kow, it sure is shiok for existing house owners when prices rise. What about young citizens? Is it shiok for them? Is all this very shiok for them? Older citizens may feel shiok now. But at some point, their children wouldn’t feel so shiok about it. Is this how we all want things to be?
Singaporean
April 12th, 2010 at 12:31 am
Ah Kow,
I don’t give a rat’s ass who feels shiok or otherwise.
I’m talking about a highly paid minister using misleading staistical chicanery to defend an indefensible and inaccurate conclusion.
Ah Kow
April 12th, 2010 at 12:10 pm
@sgcynic
Wah, you so atas, wan kennel ah? I thot you pussy cat sleep longkang, eat rubbish siok oreddy.
@Rodolfo
Eh, got many young Singaporean ah, work hard, save money and buy flat. You think they wan you destroy their investment ah?
@Singaporean
Yah lah, I know you all opposition don’t give rat’s ass whether ordinary Singaporean siok or not. Only wan to kay kiang and suan minister. Lucky got PAP take care of us.
sgcynic
April 12th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
Yah loh, more and more sleep longkang. The lucky ones sleep Sembawang Park and East Coast Park. You don’t know? Never hound them?
Minister good vote loh. We need the best men for the job. Only men of integrity (jun zi) and competence to be in Parliament. LOL
Singaporean
April 12th, 2010 at 3:49 pm
Ah Kow,
The “rat ass” comment was a bait and you swallowed it.
Obviously you are not the resident simpleton that you are trying very hard to portray. You try too hard to write like a semi-literate but you are no idiot as you understand the issues very well.
Your role here is to deflect all criticisms of PAP policies, or blunt them if possible, otherwise drag them all into oblivion.
People like you are the reasons why the PAP ministers will never get real feedback, and if they do they will be “deaf” to all criticisms.
So be it.
Singaporean
April 12th, 2010 at 4:02 pm
Ah Kow,
Despite your obvious intelligence, you have avoided talking about Minister Mah’s misleading use of statistics, and how he was exposed online by netizens.
It has spread into many forums, yet you try to sweep it under the carpet by referring to it as to “suan minister”.
For your info, I am not from the “opposition” as you wrongly labelled.
I am a concerned Singaporean who will vote for the opposition, because the incumbent is hopeless, incompetent and dishonest.
sgcynic
April 12th, 2010 at 4:02 pm
That’s why the country is going to the dogs. Vested interests by those in charge and lap dogs to do their bidding. Valid criticisms are ignored and brushed aside. One is not humble and willing to admit that there is a problem (or at least the possibilty that there is a problem) can not be depended to change the situation on the ground.
sgcynic
April 12th, 2010 at 4:06 pm
I think dishonesty is more than sufficient to discredit and disqualify anyone from any position or endeavour. Integrity is fundamental and non-negotiable. Otherwise, he can kiss the dog’s a–
sgcynic
April 12th, 2010 at 4:24 pm
Btw, Mah Bow Tan’s mischievous statistical chicanery was reported on page 2 of the Straits Times (12 Apr 2010). Sue-Ann Chia was kind enough to give Mah face and simply stated factually that Hazel Poa’s analysis showed that Mah’s statistics “may not give the full picture”. If I were Mah, I’ll blow my whiskers and tug my tail between my legs and whimper. LOL
Ah Kow
April 12th, 2010 at 4:58 pm
@Singaporean
Ah Kow clever wat. Got pass PSLE. You think wat? You want low house price you vote opposition lah. Ah Kow dowan his house price go down, so he vote PAP.
@sgcynic
Yah. Dishonest people no good. So what to do with Kenneth Jeyeratnam ah? Mr Ng Teck Siong oreddy show he liar.
sgcynic
April 12th, 2010 at 5:24 pm
Really got brains of a dog. Focus! Issue is Mah Bow Tan. Hazel Poa oreddy show he liar. LOL.
Ah Kow
April 12th, 2010 at 6:02 pm
Why you dowan talk about Kenneth Jeyeratnam ah? He also liar wat. Some more, he Hazel Poa boss.
sgcynic
April 12th, 2010 at 6:11 pm
Why you dowan want talk about Mah Bow Tan ah? He paid millions, a MINISTER, LEADER of our country, REPRESENTATIVE of the people in Parliament and your boss? LOL.
Ah Kow
April 12th, 2010 at 6:45 pm
@sgcynic
Aiyah, Ah Kow no skolar lah, cannot talk cheem cheem like Hazel Poa.
But Kenneth Jeyeratnam liar ah, Ah Kow also can understand. He say he want to take care his father party, make his father dream come true, then go and kick out his father loyal supporter Mr Ng. Anyhow say Mr Ng never run party properly, never call meeting wan. Mr Ng got show proof Kenneth Jeyeratnam liar.
Hazel Poa want to work for this kind of man ah? Cia lat lah.
truth
April 12th, 2010 at 8:40 pm
ah kow must be talking about this:
http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/04/former-rp-chairman-refutes-kenneth-jeyaretnams-claims/
sgcynic
April 12th, 2010 at 9:14 pm
Proof? Ah Kow very dogged ah. Upcoming PAP election strategy is it? Just bankrupt the man lah. Maybe get Mah Bow Tan to run against Kennth Jeyeratname lah and the people to vote. Who lose then get branded a liar and a cheat.
Bliss at last
April 12th, 2010 at 9:24 pm
Ah Kow has actually convinced me to vote opposition. Its a good chance to make some money. I don’t care 2 hoots about Sg politics esp when the system is so open to abuse.
I agree with Ah Kow that PAP make house price high – by increasing market demand (free immigration and working permits) and controlling supply.
If you want to make some money, this is your ideal chance. Sell your house now (before election) at high price, VOTE OPPOSITION and buy at low.
What is the point of keeping house price high if the next house you buy is also going to be high or higher? So, sorry Ah Kow, for this, I cannot vote PAP. I am loyal only to money.
Fish
April 13th, 2010 at 1:17 am
If you take away the authoritarian regime in Singapore, all you have left is Hongkong, and it is just as successful.
And property prices there are truly market based.
Singaporean
April 13th, 2010 at 12:31 pm
Ah Kow is not only intelligent, he is also very aware of political news.
And he is prepared to fully defend the PAP’s policies at all cost. If he cannot convince, he will try to confuse. If all else fails, drag the discussion into the gutter.
This is the tactic of the infamous “internet brigade”. I believe they operate under many different nicks.
The “Ah Kow” nick is trying to imitate a typical ah beng heartlander writing in singlish.
Try harder.
Singaporean
April 13th, 2010 at 12:44 pm
The PAP’s message of fear, as said by “ah kow”, is that our house price will go down if we don’t vote PAP.
It works. Many HDB heartlanders are afraid of this. There is also the upgrading carrot. Fear and greed is a powerful combination.
Such “irrational” fears blind us to the incompetent and self-serving policies that ensure continued dominance and one-party rule.
If we can overcome our irrational fears, we have taken the first step.
Rodolfo
April 13th, 2010 at 12:52 pm
Yesterday’s ST carried an article explaining that there is real unhappiness (on the ground) with property prices.
Our PM had said something about some people astroturfing on this issue. I sure hope he wasn’t just brushing this issue aside and sweeping it under the carpet. I think this is a real problem. I find it hard to see how property prices have risen in tandem with wages (in a broad sense).
The Govt intends to increase the population to 6.5 million over the medium to long term. Just look at how things are after growing from 4 million to 5.5 million. Minister Mah has ruled out an across the board increase of plot ratios recently. And new supply is coming on stream bit by bit. All this after such a significant increase in population. Is this going to happen all over again when we move from 5.5 million to 6.5 million? Some civil servants have heard of some talk about increasing it further to 10 million. If and when that day comes, what happens?
sgcynic
April 13th, 2010 at 6:10 pm
Aiyoh, Mah Bow Tan still getting hammered.
http://singaporemind.blogspot.com/2010/04/mah-bow-tan-we-dont-fudge-numbers-part_12.html
“The very basic fact is HDB supplied only 11,000 new flats from 2006-2008 while the resident population in Singapore increased by 438,000 people.” No wonder flat prices shoot sky high and dogs become gods, enjoying their Swiss standard of living rolling and frolicking with the powers-that-be.
Ah Kow
April 13th, 2010 at 11:29 pm
@Singaporean
Yah, Ah Kow can read newspaper. You all opposition think heartlander stupid ah?
Some more, Ah Kow also sometime never agree with PAP. Now gahmen say they wan upgrade Potong Pasir hawker centre. Ah Kow say what for do this?
Ah Kow think no fair to upgrade opposition ward. What for waste money like that? PAP must take care own supporter first. Upgrade Ah Kow flat better than upgrade opposition ward. Let opposition ward ask opposition MP do upgrade for them.
Some more, do upgrade for opposition ward ah, then their flat price go up, they scold you, why flat price go up. What for waste money on people like this? They all opposition wan cheap flat wat, so what for upgrade? Let them live cheap flat.
Ah Kow think PAP too nice to opposition.
@Rodolpho and sgcynic
Aiyah, Ah Kow say oreddy wat, you wan cheap flat, go opposition ward. Somemore ah, you buy there now, then election come you vote opposition out ah, maybe can get upgrade. Then make money oreddy.
sgcynic
April 13th, 2010 at 11:41 pm
“Some more, Ah Kow also sometime never agree with PAP. Now gahmen say they wan upgrade Potong Pasir hawker centre. Ah Kow say what for do this?”
Yah loh. Lose billions in Temasek Holdings and GIC “investments” also better than invest in Singaporean heartlanders. What more those ingrates in Potong Pasir. Give them sharks fin for what? Feed kow better.
Use all the reserves hoot everything in one basket. Maybe huat ah. Then justify that Madam Ho is the “best man for the job” right? Pocket money only what. Peanuts. That’s why Madam Ho also no regrets. What for spend on lesser mortals leh?
Vote PAP. More good years ahead, with one more million PRs.
sgcynic
April 13th, 2010 at 11:47 pm
Kow,
Btw, People Association and the PAP is it each comprise 70% Singaporeans/PRs and 30% foreigners ah? Curious leh
sgcynic
April 13th, 2010 at 11:52 pm
Oh, yah. Any plans to promote greater representation for GRCs? Since PR and foreigners now about 40% of Singapore population. Maybe nominate some to be NMP also. Must show them respect right?
sgcynic
April 14th, 2010 at 12:08 am
Aiyoh,
Just read Tan Kin Lian sprouting nonsense on his blog (http://tankinlian.blogspot.com/2010/04/confidence-in-leaders.html). The joker who fought for the ah peks and ah mas in the minibond fiasco. If Lee Kuan Yew has his way, everything chop chop, “cased closed” since those goondus dived in “with their eyes open” like Auntie Ho. No regrets lah.
“A met a nurse at a wake. I said that the current government had done a lot of good for the people and the country during the first 30 years after independence. During the next 15 years, the policies have been bad for the people, as they led to high cost of living, stagnant wages and wide disparity of income. The government leaders are not working for the welfare of the people and appear to be looking after the intrest of big business and their own interest.
Most people have been quite unfair in judging the “poor quality” of the opposition politicians, as their main source of information is the mainstream media.
I know many of these politicians personally and appreciate their personal sacrifices in being willing to take a stand against the ruling party. Many of them are quite well educated and decent people, quite moderate in their thinking and feel strongly for Singapore. Some people think that they only appear at election time. This is not true. They do spend time on the ground work, but are not reported in the media. We must remember that they have to make a living and have to face difficulty in the business or at work.
She was surprised at my frankness. She started to express her own feelings of doubt about the future of our country and the direction that it is heading. She lamented that many Singaporeans are not able to think about what is good for the country and are afraid to think differently from what has been told to them in the media.”
sgcynic
April 14th, 2010 at 12:17 am
Wow! Someone agree with Mr Tan Kin Lian! (http://tankinlian.blogspot.com/2010/04/confidence-in-leaders.html)
“Dear Mr. Tan,
I fully agree with an article on your blog (The future of our country). I have very little confidence in the next generation of leaders. All of them have never contested in a fair and open election, thanks to the grossly unleveled playing field (eg. GRC, ruling party’s use of the entire govt machinery against the opposition party cadres, heavily biased and tightly controlled mainstream media).
How can they claim to represent the people if they are not elected by the people? This explains why they don’t have any clue what the people feel/think. They just enact policies according to their liking. They think they know best. They don’t have the decency to apologise when they are wrong.
This sad state of affairs worries me. I now seriously wonder if I should get PR status in say Australia. Having a team of “strawberry” leaders, who make policies out of an ivory yower, steering this country scares me like hell.”
Observer
April 14th, 2010 at 9:59 am
Ah Kow’s last post must have hit a nerve. Sgcynic, read it, go mad, and put 5 posts of pure rubbish. LOL.
sgcynic
April 14th, 2010 at 10:23 am
I understand where you’re comng from. It must be rubbish to the PAP, the deaf, and the dumb.
fruitcake
April 14th, 2010 at 11:20 am
LOL. Why so serious sgcynic? LOL. I thought you are my laughing twin. LOL. Please don’t cry. LOL.
Singaporean
April 14th, 2010 at 12:58 pm
Using HDB upgrading to win votes is pork barrel politics.
Constantly changing electoral boundaries and only announcing them at the last minute is gerry-mandering.
The GRC allows incompetent candidates to get into parliament unelected, or ride on the coat-tails of ministers.
Only 3 other countries have something similar – Cameroon, Chad and Djibouti.
First World indeed.
Nuts
April 14th, 2010 at 1:39 pm
Hi fruitcake! Grate to c u! Wil yuor post be deleted again?
Observing Observer
April 14th, 2010 at 8:52 pm
Observer
Ah Kow’s post hits many nerveSSSS. One must be deaf & dumb not to be. Yes, we are ALL going mad thats true. You may take sgcynic’s post as rubbish, but it does not mean that it is rubbish to the masses.
fruitcake
April 14th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
yay! more people like me. Fruitcake and nuts lol its christmas time lol its observing observing observer time lol
sgcynic
April 14th, 2010 at 9:13 pm
An interesting perspective from a post in Diary of a Singaporean Mind. (Though I remain hopeful, I doubt that is the case here.)
Kow… fruitcake… What next? I remain an eager observer… LOL
An office worker is an employee of a big company and is forced to follow the orders of her superiors who are secretly playing
politics with each other while pretending to field a unified front.
She is tasked to do public relations for the deeply unpopular corporation, which she resents because that makes her stuck between her bosses – whom she considers to be selfish, arrogant, incompetent and were only in high places because of their family background and business connections, and the irate public – whom she she considers stupid, ungrateful and full of unreasonable demands.
She hates her job so much that whenever she is ordered to defend the company from public criticisms, instead of defending using facts, she would blatantly twist the issue using irrelevant anecdotes and sarcastic language to make the public even more dulan.
She hopes that if despite her “efforts” the company becomes even less popular than before, her superiors will finally stop asking her to do this unpleasant job and hopefully promote her to a nice office with a nice view now, please.
sgcynic
April 14th, 2010 at 9:19 pm
Maybe Kow’s day off, today fruitcake’s shift. LOL
fruitcake
April 14th, 2010 at 9:40 pm
Lol yay sgcynic is happy again lol
sgcynic
April 14th, 2010 at 9:43 pm
U noob?
Observer
April 14th, 2010 at 9:44 pm
I say sgcynic is talking rubbish because his 5 post have nothing to do with hdb price. Then he make desperate link to tan kin lian blog which have almost no comment. are you tan kin lian?
sgcynic
April 14th, 2010 at 9:49 pm
Come on lah, isn’t this an open, inclusive platform for us to share our experience, where kow talk and fruitcakes run amok? Siok can already. LOL
Observer
April 14th, 2010 at 9:56 pm
you are tan kin lian right? that’s why you never deny.
sgcynic
April 14th, 2010 at 9:57 pm
Btw, since we’re talking about hdb price, what are your views about Mah Bow Tan’s unfortunate choice of data to justify his claim that Singaporean’s income has increased in tandem with HDB prices?
Also, Mah said “the reality on the ground is that every year, 12,000 flats are sold” (http://www.asiaone.com/Business/My%2BMoney/Property/Story/A1Story20100407-209011.html)
But Mr Tommy Tan, managing partner of JATT Realty gave some very interesting statistics about HDB that contradicted Mah:
- 36,609 flats were constructed in 1998. In contrast, 10,082 flats were constructed in 2003. The numbers for the next five years, from 2004 to 2008, were 5,326, 5,673, 2,733, 5,063 and 3,154, respectively
- HDB resale prices increased by 40.2 per cent in three years (2007 to 2009)
Can enlighten me? LOL
sgcynic
April 14th, 2010 at 10:01 pm
Oops. Forgot to provide the link for sane readers
http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/04/paym-hdb-policy-forum-now-i-know-why-flats-are-affordable-part-2-2/
Observing Observer
April 14th, 2010 at 10:08 pm
Observer’s post @April 14th, 2010 at 9:44 pm : “I say sgcynic is talking rubbish because his 5 post have nothing to do with hdb price. ….”
Observer’s post @April 14th, 2010 at 9:56 pm: “you are tan kin lian right? that’s why you never deny.”
Ahh, rubbish question by our own comment in the first post.
Observing Observer
April 14th, 2010 at 10:09 pm
Correction, I mean rubbish question by YOUR own comment in the first post.
Ah Kow
April 14th, 2010 at 10:48 pm
@Observer
Aiyah, don’t so fierce lah. Singapore opposition all stupid wan, always on the wrong ball. People talk housing, they kau peh why sky so high, why sea so blue. Must give chance wan lah, they no clever like PAP.
@Fruitcake
Eh, you wan to be like opposition ah, cannot lol so much. siow only, no enough. must be angry and stupid also.
@sgcynic
Why you post so many link ah? You ownself cannot think ah?
Somemore, what for talk so cheem. HDB very easy wat. You wan price go up or down?
You wan your flat price go up, vote for PAP. they do upgrade, take care your ward sui sui, your flat price go up.
You vote opposition, they don’t do upgrade, don’t clean rubbish, your ward like kiam chye, your flat price go down.
Which one you wan you choose lah. easy wat.
sgcynic
April 14th, 2010 at 10:54 pm
Kow, you simpleton, hold fast only to one logic – vote PAP so price go up. Be careful, your puppies cannot afford.
I not fruitcake lah. I read alot, so post some link so that dogs can become learned skolars mah.
Btw, are you one of those foreign talents that the PAP attracted to Singapore? (Just asking, cause statistically, you have a 40% chance of being so. Welcome to YourSingapore.)
sgcynic
April 14th, 2010 at 10:58 pm
Btw, your comment reminded of another? reader (youcan’t think). He share similar view as you. LOL
Singapore Girl Next Door
April 14th, 2010 at 11:32 pm
It is never really about HDB affordability.
It boils down to the fact that the government already sees HDB as a liability.
Who was it again who called them an “eye sore” and a “necessary evil”?
I visited a dear friend at URA and talked about Singapore’s master plan for a globalized city.
Your guess is as good as mine – there are no HDBs.
sgcynic
April 14th, 2010 at 11:40 pm
It is never really about HDB affordability.
It’s about having the right people to lead, who cares for the citizens and residents of the country, and who would make the right policies to that end.
Singaporean
April 15th, 2010 at 10:10 am
Skyrocketing HDB prices pushes up the whole property market, which means ….. more Singaporean’s money locked up in property, mainly via CPF.
If you already have a flat you may feel rich when HDB prices are sky high. One way to be cash-rich is to sell your flat and live in a tent on the beach.
Or give up citizenship and take out your CPF. Anyway CPF-Life annuities will trap that too, so you better move fast.
Now, they are now thinking hard how to prevent you from taking your profits out of CPF when you sell your HDB flat.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves” (E.Murrow)
It’s a chess game where the wolves constantly out-manouver the sheep.
Singaporean
April 15th, 2010 at 10:15 am
The answer is:
Don’t be a sheep, be a lion.
And also you need to get rid of the wolves.
Observer
April 15th, 2010 at 10:22 am
Why sgcynic cannot answer my question? Is he tan kin lian, desperate to make people read his blog, so post link here?
Ah Kow
April 15th, 2010 at 10:26 am
Wah, you all opposition ah, champion lah.
First, all kau peh kau bu hdb flat cannot afford.
Now, kana hantam blue black, all say “never really about hdb affordability.”
You all so fast change song ah, how to take seriously? That’s why people say you all clown, talk rubbish wan.
sgcynic
April 15th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
Observer,
No, I am not Mr Tan Kin Lian.
Now you answer my questions posted to you earlier.
sgcynic
April 15th, 2010 at 12:20 pm
Yah loh, kow, fruitcake all talk rubbish, like clown. Unlike PAP elite, know how to smoke. That’s why HDB flat affordable (Mah Bow Tan) and why COE price increase not due to govt cutting number of COEs (Lim Hwee Hua). LOL
sgcynic
April 15th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
“It’s a chess game where the wolves constantly out-manouver the sheep.”
Singaporean, perhaps that used to be the case. Now instead of wolves we have their cousins – dogs. At least wolves have cunning and ferocity. Pity the dogs, forced by the master to defend the indefensible. I would become fruitcake if called to do the same.
sgcynic
April 15th, 2010 at 12:36 pm
I would at least respect my opponents if they bother to put forth their points cogently, never mind our differing viewpoints. At least there would be genuine debate and exchange of views.
Judging from the performance of our PAP ministers and MPs in Parliament, there is little if any debate and much wayang. Typical PAP responses to the public would be to
- evade the topic
- deflect and reframe the context of the issue
- talk down and be condescending
- engage in character assassination
So what can we expect from their followers? Clearly their monikers show they don’t even have any self-respect nor respect for their counterparts. Hence my unreserved contempt. LOL
Observer
April 15th, 2010 at 2:43 pm
When sgcynic lose argument to Ah Kow on housing, he flood wall with a lot of off-topic nonsense post. This is opposition strategy is it? Lose argument only blow smoke hope people don’t see?
sgcynic
April 15th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
Yes, I forgot to add. As evident over the past few months, the PAP is trapped deeper and deeper in a state of siege and denial. The time will come. The ground is sweet. Change will have to come, from within or without.
sgcynic
April 15th, 2010 at 4:22 pm
Observer,
Don’t throw smoke leh. I answered your question but you still have not answered mine.
What are your views about Mah Bow Tan’s unfortunate choice of data to justify his claim that Singaporean’s income has increased in tandem with HDB prices? Is Mah the type of leader you would vote for?
Singaporean
April 15th, 2010 at 5:59 pm
HDB flats are always “affordable”.
The fallacy lies in the fact that this affordability is a moving target. It is a shifting goal post that is moving further and further away from the average Singaporean.
The previous generation can pay off HDB loans in 10 to 15 years.
This generation needs 30 years.
Next, it will take TWO generations to pay for a 99-year leasehold HDB flat.
But then, you can still argue that it is “affordable”.
sgcynic
April 15th, 2010 at 6:12 pm
Singaporean,
Mah Bow Tan pay off his HDB loan in 2-3 months with his $2 million annual salary.
Singaporean
April 15th, 2010 at 6:13 pm
sgcynic, it is not necessary to argue with the PAP “internet brigade” because their tactics will not work.
China tried and failed. They set up the Great Firewall but it has enough holes to rival swiss cheese. Netizens are not stupid.
All concerned Singaporeans have the duty to spread the truth, and counter propaganda on the internet. It is the only level playing field we have.
sgcynic
April 15th, 2010 at 6:26 pm
Just doing my duty as a person and Singaporean. I’m not here to convince the “internet brigade”, at least not those who cannot / dare not engage in a reasoned argument. It won’t change the ground. LOL.
Mayday, mayday. Quick, restore the CPF! Hooray! Finally! Three cheers for the PAP! LOL
Singaporean
April 15th, 2010 at 7:45 pm
The ruling elite living in ivory towers have forgotten their basic responsibilities and accountability to all Singaporeans.
Public housing is a basic need. One of the lowest levels on Maslow’s hierarchy.
The majority of Singaporeans are no better than slaves slogging to pay off HDB flats. Some are desperate enough to sell and live in tents. Who says there are no homeless in Singapore ?
Go to the beaches and you will see them.
Sgcynic
April 15th, 2010 at 7:52 pm
Shh… Don’t give away their location, else this government will set the MCYS, police and hounds on the homeless and throw them in Angsana Home, located at Buangkok Green, next to the Institute of Mental Health (where fruitcake is). LOL
Observing Observer
April 15th, 2010 at 8:05 pm
Singaporean
The height of their ivory towers & the intoxification of millions of dollars must be making them very dizzy. Its only natural lah.
Anyone has any idea on the building cost of say a 5-rm HDB flat? Anyone? Maybe the insiders like Kow et al can shed some light?
Don't shoot me, am not opposition
April 15th, 2010 at 9:57 pm
HDB affordability depends on whether the mortgage is from dual or single income of couples, size of the flat & location. If a couple uses dual fulltime incomes to buy a 3-rm flat in Timbaktu then, it is very affordable but problem becomes very big for the couple when they have children. Who looks after them if both parents work fulltime? Ok, maid but they need to pay levies etc plus provide a space for her to sleep in the tiny flat. When they want their children to go to a good school, it is not possible. As the children grows, the home becomes too small. This is where they get even more stuck because re-sale flats of preferred choice are even more unaffordable. So if the couple plans ahead, they cannot afford what they want, if they don’t they kenna worse later.
Problem is only solved when you have a super rich daddy who buys you a home and wills his fortune to you. Mr Mah may only know of the existence of this group in Sg. But then how can educated people and talents be so ignorant?
Don't shoot me, am not opposition
April 15th, 2010 at 10:05 pm
Singaporean
Does sedition and defamation apply only one way? Are you warning Ah Kow as well? He is calling opposition crackpots. How about that? I thought there is alot of defamation on oppos here. Is the police watching out for this?
Singaporean
April 15th, 2010 at 11:22 pm
not oppo,
Sedition Act was discussed on TR and TOC. Please read there. Quite enlightening.
As for defamation, I think most Singaporeans know how that works by now.
Vikram Nair
April 16th, 2010 at 12:13 am
Thanks for the comments and discussion guys, especially to those who tried to stay on topic. For those who were trading insults, I must say, you guys made me laugh – I also think Ah Kow is no fool, and sgcynic is not a fruitcake
What I’ll be interested to hear from you guys is whether you have any suggestions for what HDB should do in the current situation. I think everyone agrees there is a tension between preserving the value of flats and keeping them affordable. I’ll be interested to know what policies, if any, you guys would suggest the HDB implement going forward. The more detailed and thought through the suggestions, the better
Singaporean
April 16th, 2010 at 1:19 am
Hi Vikram,
With due respect, I would first like to know whether feedback here REALLY goes to the MND or HDB or Mr Mah.
There has been tons and tons of feedback online, and what do we get in return ?
Blamed for being choosy, and champion grumblers.
Have crap statistics thrown at us.
Accused of astroturfing.
etc.
Is anybody up there actually listening to the people ?
Rodolfo
April 16th, 2010 at 1:41 am
Vikram has finally come back online after a break…
Some government agencies have clearly engaged in a very liberal immigration policy over the past few years. It would be useful if the govt could make public population numbers on a more regular basis. Not too long ago the govt announced a long term goal of 6.5 million. Then from nowhere this 5.5 million statistic appeared and it was a big surprise. And it seems our “long term goal” is not that far away.
Many of these new immigrants are not high income earners. So that might reasonably translate into strong demand for HDB and lower end private properties? Would it have helped if the relevant agencies had done some forecasts based on immigration numbers and increased the property supply earlier? I can’t help but feel we are a bit behind the curve on this.
Rodolfo
April 16th, 2010 at 1:48 am
Comments from some senior govt officials seem to pooh-pooh public sentiment on property prices.
I wonder if they remember opening the gates to large numbers of foreigners in recent years…..
sgcynic
April 16th, 2010 at 4:25 am
Thanks Vikram, I enjoyed it too. LOL
Not sure why “there is a tension between preserving the value of flats and keeping them affordable” since according to Mah Bow Tan, demand has been keeping up with supply. Price equilibrium achieved. No worries about huge fluctuations either way unless one votes for the opposition right? Simple economics…
Ah Kow
April 16th, 2010 at 10:30 am
Wah, how come ask for policy only opposition got nothing to say ah?
Ah Kow kana call dog, but he still got better idea than opposition. Don’t do upgrade for opposition ward, so their flat cheap and affordable.
That money can use to upgrade flat for PAP supporter. They all wan upgrade, so they vote for PAP wat. Can also give more money to new home buyer.
Ah Kow policy very easy wan. Don’t waste money on opposition voter. They all wan cheap flat, so let them live cheap flat.
sgcynic
April 16th, 2010 at 1:56 pm
Yah loh, policy very consistent. “If you’re not with us, then you are the opposition” and “all opposition are crackpots and individualists and clowns”. One people, one nation, one Singapore (our aspiration) LOL
referee
April 16th, 2010 at 2:38 pm
Eh, stop fighting like cats and dogs.
Don't shoot me, am not opposition
April 16th, 2010 at 7:07 pm
Vikram
In order to suggest solution, first you need to provide some key data:
- What is the cost of a HDB flat? Lets just take a typical 4-rm flat for our purpose.
- What is the average income of the breadwinner of a young family, say 28 yrs old, before starting a family. (was thinking of age 30 or even 35 but that would might be too late for women to bear children).
- What are the top or most popular schools and where are they stituated?
Other affordability issues that need to be taken into consideration are transport (depends on location), supermarket or non-Sheng Shiong wet market (again depends on location) but we will not complicate the matter for now. Lets just assume the flat for our eg is no affected by these 2 factors.
Rodolfo
April 17th, 2010 at 11:27 am
Apologies for the digression…
I am elated that the SEC is charging Goldman Sachs for fraud. It is about time Govts show some backbone, peel off the veneer some bankers hide behind, expose them for who they really are and bring crooks to justice.
Singaporean
April 19th, 2010 at 2:59 pm
Here you go. The latest “feedback” …..
“Why Mah Bow Tan’s policy of high HDB flat prices is wrong.”
http://www.temasekreview.com/2010/04/19/mah-bow-tan%E2%80%99s-policy-of-high-hdb-flat-prices-is-wrong/
Ex PAP Supporter
April 19th, 2010 at 6:17 pm
PAP is a pale comparison to the team led by LKY.My whole clan are voting for the Opposition even if it is SDP or some random Independent candidate.
Vikram – I’ll be interested to know what policies, if any, you guys would suggest the HDB implement going forward. The more detailed and thought through the suggestions, the better
Vikram.You are a PAP member.You want more detailed and good suggestions to your own benefit.I see you in the MPS.So you are being groomed.But your non-answers to the many queries here are baffling.
You will be no different than the current batch of PAP MPs.Armchair leaders who live in their ivory towers.
Tsk Tsk Tsk…………..
Don't shoot me
April 19th, 2010 at 7:42 pm
Vikram
The more data you provide, the better for solutions. If you don’t know the data, perhaps you can point directions to get them. How can we find out the raw building cost of a 4-rm HDB flat? Pls also enlighten on all my other questions.
It is very ‘non-academic’ to just say HDB flats are affordable. For who? To who? Where & what type of flats? And the key question is, is the affordability sustainable?
Regarding the announcement by WKS that the Govt is spending $1bil on upgrading, how will flat owners benefit from this financially if they do not sell their flats? Key question: Will the 99-yr lease be extended due to upgrades?
We are all in the dark as there are so many unanswered questions. You will do us all a big favour if you can provide some answers.
Singapore Girl Next Door
April 19th, 2010 at 11:43 pm
Dear Vikram,
A good policy is in part judged by how well it defines the problem.
And the problem was simple – HDB incurred billions in losses.
While HDB was quick to reveal it, they were short of admitting they are responsible.
Few years back, there was a massive build-up of 5-room flats which to-date remain unsold – a product of poor projections.
So the claim that there were no shortage of supply is true but only because most of the supply was the 5-rooms.
But the demand was for 3-rooms and 4-rooms and with Singapore’s aging population, there was even a resurgence for 2-rooms.
There wass essentially a mismatch between supply and demand that led to the HDB losses.
It triggered a confusion….between HDB and the private market, the problem was quickly generalized and dismissed as a “supply” problem and eerily blamed to market speculation.
So it wouldn’t be surprising that HDB policy makers were pressured to cut supply….2% re-supply plus BTO model….across the board.
As far as the losses are concerned, it merely reinforced the idea among policy makers that HDB is becoming a thorn in our bid to build a globalized city, undermines our investments in the IR, casino, and other property build-up and proposals for corrective action in the form of re-supply and price corrections are quickly delegated as “welfare”….and welfare in this country is a dirty word as far as our government is concerned.
Remember that HDB is a government institution. While it invokes market forces, it has an overwhelming and unmatched influence over price….so there’s no excuse for prices to get out of control and for them to lose billions in the process.
Well, that’s how I see it. But anyone is welcome to correct me.
There is a simple solution. We only need to go back 15 years back. Prices were high then BUT everyone was happy.
So what was it that worked then which we forego now?
Regards,
SGND
Singapore Girl Next Door
April 20th, 2010 at 12:04 am
There is widespread notion that foreigners caused the prices to surge thru the resale market.
This is true, but again remember that HDB has monopolized control over supply and price and can easily mitigate possibilities of prices going out of the window and out of our reach.
What could have possibly happened for them to unwind their grip over supply?
Singapore Girl Next Door
April 20th, 2010 at 12:17 am
Or should I ask what could have possibly happened for them to tighten their grip over supply?
This reminds me of a retailer who wants to clear a large inventory to cut losses before it purchases a new batch of products.
This retailer is fortunate that there are tourists who are willing to consume the old inventory. This is testament to their spending power and therefore willingness to embrace the cost but at the expense of value.
And this retailer has a monopoly over Singapore.
A monopoly and a strong demand, and yet the retailer is not replenishing his inventory.
Shops in Orchard Road do this when they are about to close shop.
I hope my oversimplification does not apply to HDB
Singapore Girl Next Door
April 20th, 2010 at 12:31 am
Having said all these, foreigners are the symptom rather than the root of the problem.
Neither should we “vote out the PAP” because of this debacle.
I can only this – in the coming election, I will vote those who have proven their worth, have contributed to the success of Singapore and therefore had a rightful place in the PAP….as opposed to those who emphatically believe they are indispensible for merely being part of the PAP despite not having any past accomplishments to speak of but hold a seat in the parliament thru the backdoor process commonly known as the GRC.
sgcynic
April 20th, 2010 at 2:31 am
Amen
Ex PAP Supporter
April 20th, 2010 at 3:06 am
Singapore Girl Next Door I vote for you.
Singaporean
April 20th, 2010 at 12:29 pm
When will I ever get the chance to vote ?
I am sick and tired of one-party rule, and I don’t believe the incumbent has the answers to what is ailing this country.
You can call me daft, but you cannot be deaf to all criticisms.
Ah Kow
April 20th, 2010 at 9:26 pm
@SGND
Wah, you talk so cheem, then your solution is go back 15 years ah? You all opposition can time travel ah? Got other solution or not?
@Don’t Shoot Me
Eh, you got no info ah, why you anyhow shoot PAP?
Ah Kow also want info. When he buy 4D ah, he wan to know what number win, but he donow where to find that info. Can scold gahmen or not?
Somemore you find info ah, you do wat?
@Ex PAP Supporter
Eh, you same person as Well Said Singapore Girl ah? SGND oreddy scold you, say she dowan support from clown like you, so you change name ah? Opposition clown like you ah, help PAP wan.
@Singaporean
Aiyah, opposition all dowan stand for election wat, only wan to talk cock on internet. That’s why Singaporean cannot vote.
sgcynic
April 20th, 2010 at 10:38 pm
Wah,
PAP world class transparent government. Why no info? Don’t dare ah? Cannot stand up to scrutiny is it?
Don't shoot me
April 20th, 2010 at 11:34 pm
Vikram
I will wait patiently for your reply. Perhaps you don’t have a notebook to plug in at hotels or overseas workplace, perhaps you need to take time to search the info, perhaps you have no answers. I am sure you know that any solution without proper data is just trying your luck.
Singapore Girl Next Door
What a waste of talent in you. However perhaps having a certain ideology negates talent or overrides it in SG. It is good to go back to the drawing board when things get terribly messed up but the problem is, we may not even have a board now.
Ah Kow
I have good reason to write annoymously (because I question govt policy, which is treason to the ruling party, PAP). You on the other hand will be in their good books and nothing to fear. Why don’t you reveal your real name and address? Why call yourself a dog? I don’t mean to insult, I am just very curious.
Don't shoot me
April 21st, 2010 at 12:04 am
Any solution without proper data is just trying your luck like Ah Kow buying 4D.
Rodolfo
April 21st, 2010 at 12:30 am
Vikram, this appears to be a sensitive topic for many. I would say I know of more than a few who would agree with the views of contributors in this forum.
babyboomers
April 21st, 2010 at 6:04 pm
somehow we are no better than our parents. mine owned a 5 room hdb which they bought 40 years ago in marine parade for less than $20k and my own 5 room hdb flat nearby block bought 3 years ago for $500k. my parents no cpf but got 6 children to take care of them. i also no cpf but got 3 children who probably can’t take care of even themselves as they have to pay the high hdb prices now ! so much for pro-family, filial piety, etc. sad fate for most singaporeans (except for the top 5% elite class)
sgcynic
April 22nd, 2010 at 2:08 am
an article to share with readers – Policies & Contradictions of the PAP government
http://nabbedd.wordpress.com/2010/04/21/of-policies-contradictions/
Are policies implemented right? More importantly, are the right policies implemented?
Wake up your idea opposition
April 22nd, 2010 at 8:53 pm
so many comment from the pap critic, still, nobody got plan for what need to be changed? opposition all useless. i vote for ah kow plan.
sgcynic
April 22nd, 2010 at 9:15 pm
Paint yourself into a corner. Complain no help or suggestion. LOL. You dig your grave, you lie in it.
Don't shoot me
April 22nd, 2010 at 9:39 pm
I am no MP material like Vikram and I wonder if anybody would take me seriously if I propose anything at all. Like I posted few times now, we first need proper input. We need to know the profile of flat buyers and the cost of building the flats. This is like going back to the drawing board and SGND is right, it needs to be done or we, the citizens are going nowhere and it needs to be done with clear thoughts untainted by GDP and bonuses.
The public housing provider must know the profile of flat buyers and the cost of building the flats. These data should be on hand and even monitored live with todays technology. With all the attacks or critics at least in this forum alone, I would have thought that it is to the dept’s advantage to make public all these info. So why nothing?
Ex PAP Supporter
April 23rd, 2010 at 4:30 am
HDB profits and CPF funds used for GIC,Temasek losses.Left pocket to right pocket.PAP MP job is to complicate matters.
I prefer Singapore Girl Next Door and not the elitist jokers in PAP.Brin anak anak into party.
Singapore Girl Next Door
April 24th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
As for a long term solution, I firmly believe that we must go back to the drawing boards simply because of one reason – current policies were never really designed to accomodate the social and economic impact of a 6.5M population.
Housing is proportional to population so I find it disturbing that our government will argue that limiting housing supply is sound but we should pursue the 25% population increase anyway.
To answer Vikram’s question, Japan’s property boom was, to borrow words from the Maestro, due to overt exuberance due to excess in money supply.
We see similar exuberance in many markets but Singapore is unique and different from Japan since we have large amounts of resident-immigrants to fill the bubble.
But that merely transforms the problem – from economic to social.
No single person or group should have a monopoly to policy.
If there’s a solution, it’s the amalgamation of inputs from many people.
One such input is a review of the rules in HDB resale market.
HDB for a very long time is in dilemma since HDB flat price and supply is never really market based…..BUT….one of the ways they allow price to estimate the market is by pegging it between private condominiums and HDB re-sale prices.
It is in reality an application of both economics and psychology.
But the error is in the fact that price of new HDBs follow the supply curve of the HDB resale.
When you have a surge in foreigners, the HDB resale supply will naturally dwindle….and it has an unwanted effect of driving prices of new HDB flats higher care-of-psychology.
It boils down to two choices -
* We don’t sell to foreigners
* We increase the PR quota to increase HDB resale supply
Either way, you have critics.
But for me, something requires more urgent attention as we draw nearer to our bid for a globalized city with strong 6.5M population – how do we invest in our own people, ordinary Singaporeans, so they remain relevant in a competitive and globalized world?
But our government already evaded that problem by resorting to foreigners – it’s cheaper to import rather than develop locally.
In reality, many in the government are immune to criticisms and our local media will drown us in their silence. So I won’t be surprised if the problem drags itself until it has drained our resolve and forces us to accept it as part of the modern Singaporean life.
What is my solution?
My hope is in the next generation.
Ivory Tower Opposition
April 25th, 2010 at 11:26 am
SGND, your short term solution is to go back in time 15 years and your long term solution is to hope for the next generation? Your opposition party has no practical plan for what must be done right now?
Why should anybody vote for you and your party? You are living in your own dream world and have no real alternative policies for Singaporeans.
godlike PAP
April 25th, 2010 at 1:54 pm
SGND, we never intended to engage in debate with you opposition clowns. We never admitted that anything is wrong with our policies. We purposely asked for your suggestions so that we can shoot you down. We will never give you information so that you can use against us. You are living in your own dream world and will never make it to join us in our ivory tower. Don’t expect change.
Singapore Girl Next Door
April 25th, 2010 at 2:14 pm
Dear Ivory Tower Opposition,
Thank you.
I like to know people who see the world differently than I do.
It’s like being transported to a far away land.
Sometimes, you strike a conversation with a stranger and think they are different but after awhile you learn you have a lot in common.
You reminded me why I want to became a teacher – every student I met were first strangers
—-
We in the opposition believe that there is a problem ahead of us bigger than rising HDB prices.
In fact, rising HDB prices is only a symptom of the real problem that we face.
For the first time since our independence, our standard of living has dropped and for many reasons.
As a workforce, if we are competitive, this will be reflected in our salaries, and with a stronger purchasing power, no one will be complaining of rising costs of living nor of high HDB prices.
And 15 years back, as a nation, we were ahead of the pack, and the credit goes entirely to the PAP.
At that time, inflation was no match to our ability to command competitive salaries commensurate to our ability to provide value as workers.
If there’s anything similar between today and 15 years ago, it was the high HDB prices. The ONLY REAL and TRUE difference is the amount of money in our pockets.
After the Asian Financial Crisis, we faced two choices – either become cheaper or become innovators.
Our government then made a conscious effort to straddle both. “Foreign workers” to make us cheaper and “Foreign talent” to make us innovators.
Those of us who study Singapore’s modern history see that turning point to be as significant as the economic choices we made in the 70s and 80s.
Those in our government gambled that the likes of HK, Taiwan and South Korea will fail, that their “naivety” in investing in their own people pale against the awesome talent from the West nurtured by natural selection.
We’re still blinded with race complex, aren’t we?
If I propose to go back 15 years, it is only to put ourselves in the same turning point – should we become cheap, or should we innovate?
Simply put – in a globalized world, we need to be innovative to be competitive so we can command a higher salary. And with increasing salary, no rising cost will ever be an issue.
Economic growth is a function of TWO and ONLY TWO things – Capital and Innovation.
So the question we should really be asking ourselves is – How do we invest in people…in ordinary Singaporeans?
But many in our government find the concept too difficult to grapple because you can not quantify nor put a number to it.
It’s intellectually challenging. Believe me. A guy won the Nobel Prize for economics recently when he laid out the answer. But the important thing is – the answer already exists.
And so the richest man in the world once asked – what is it which brings out the most in human potential?
We’ve always claimed Singapore’s only true resource are its people. But don’t you ever wondered why we don’t invest in people as much as in buildings?
HDB is important….only because of the people who live in it.
Singaporeans. Not…..nevermind.
Regards,
SGND
Singapore Girl Next Door
April 25th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
While I’m at it, let me strike a blow to those who believe that Singaporeans dont have their spurs stuck into their hide.
Everyday of my life I meet “these Singaporeans”. My job depends on it.
Let me all give you a revelation – there are two types of Singaporeans, the elitists and the rest of us.
If some believe Singaporeans don’t have spurs in their hide, it really applies strongly to the elitists. I see it everyday in school.
And if they say it so that Singaporeans are lazy and complacent, I’m not surprised. But it is more a reflection of their household more than Singaporean society itself.
Observer
April 25th, 2010 at 3:41 pm
SGND is using the same trick as sgcynic. When you lose argument, put up lots of off topic rubbish. We are still waiting to hear the opposition’s policy on HDB.
sgcynic
April 25th, 2010 at 4:32 pm
Aiyoh, Observer always using the same trick. When people make a good point and cannot shoot down, just hide in ivory tower, drag others into the fray and put up lots of off topic rubbish. LOL
Ah Kow
April 25th, 2010 at 4:48 pm
Eh, pussy cat, go back your longkang and eat your rubbish.
sgcynic
April 25th, 2010 at 4:49 pm
Eh, fruitcake is out again?
Singapore Girl Next Door
April 25th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
Dear Observer,
I think many people in this forum are clear on what we expect from HDB
But allow me to summarize it for you.
When HDB cut supply, it is for the wrong reasons.
They should deal with the 5-room over-supply separately and not peg the entire market to it.
The 2% re-supply and BTO model are designed to solve problems we don’t have, but are here primarily to offset the losses HDB incurred in the past.
15 years ago, HDB was more practical with dealing supply.
We don’t have to increase supply immediately, but you and I both know we have to switch back to BTS.
It makes it easy for upgraders to open their current HDBs to the resale market which alleviates the current supply problem. And doing so has the added benefit of young couples not having to wait 3-4 years to get married.
The HDB resale market also needs revamped. When PR demand increases, it makes sense to ensure that HDB resale supply also increases. Currently, none is done to address the HDB resale supply. This means that resale prices naturally have no where to go but up. This has the effect of increasing prices of new HDBs as the latter is pegged to resale.
But in the problem of cost and affordability, you can address them in two fronts – cost (supply) and affordability.
And as far as affordability is concerned, HDB prices are a symptom of the declining domestic purchasing power – a direct result of the declining Singaporean household income.
Singaporeans are just edged out of the job market.
Number one, I’m still dumbfounded why we are aggressive in limiting options for our students and graduates just in the name of meritocracy. We should encourage more Singaporeans to get university degrees because in a globalized world, it will definitely give them a head start. We put too much barriers on univeristy entrance criterias in the name of quality, but local companies are allowed to hire foreigners from dodgy universities anyway.
Number two, there is discrimination from local SMEs, which provide 70% of the jobs in Singapore. They will tell the government that Singaporeans are not very competitive, but in separate studies done by NUS, it was revealed that their main concern was the cost – and foreigners are cheaper by the dozen.
The argument that Singaporeans are picky, lazy and complacent have no room in Singapore politics no matter how much it is toned down.
Number three, the long term is how we invest in the next generation. They will be the one who will steer Singapore in the future, and the ones who will take care of the elderly. We should remove barriers to entry to education and innovation to make sure they are more competitive than the foreigners that we import.
We may not have the answers for everything but having this discussion certainly helps us to fine tune given the perspectives of other people which may not necessarily agree with us.
And it is my hope that we can have the same thing in parliament.
Regards,
SGND
Singapore Girl Next Door
April 25th, 2010 at 5:02 pm
Singapore does not always have the answer for everything.
We also have something to learn from the world.
Look for example at Israel. They have a population problem, every do NS, but workforce is extremely competitive and innovative.
In fact, Israel is on top of the innovation scale per capita.
That’s an example of a country who is proud of its people and puts resources to invest in them.
Rodolfo
April 26th, 2010 at 1:07 am
Back to the topic of deflation… and here’s my 2 cents worth on this…
All in all, I doubt the idea of deflation will take root in Singapore in the near to medium term. The govt should have publicised the population figures more frequently as this information is important in gauging whether or not property price increases are sustainable and arising from genuine demand.
I think the govt didn’t handle this well. And I hope they do a better job in future.
Singaporean
April 26th, 2010 at 2:26 pm
SGND,
Apart from this god-forsaken place, where else in cyberspace do you write?
I’ll like to read more.
Don't shoot me
April 29th, 2010 at 8:20 pm
Rodolfo
You must be referring to re-sale flats in which case inflation or deflation by the natural cause wil be acceptable, if PRs are barred from buying them.
What we need to sort out is the sale price of new flats and its supply. In order for this to be done right, we need data. They cannot just pluck a figure from the air, it ends up with big losses and yet over-priced flats.
Vikram
Its been 10 working days since I first posted. If you can’t give any clue to the cost of building a 4-rm HDB flat and the average income of a 28 yr old breadwinner of a family, if no Govt dept can give such data esp the latter, what hope do we have in solving the public housing problem.
Ex PAP Supporter
April 30th, 2010 at 4:24 am
PAP sucks
Ah Kow
April 30th, 2010 at 10:42 am
Ex PAP Supporter suck thumb
Rodolfo
April 30th, 2010 at 8:06 pm
Don’t shoot me, yes I am mostly referring to the resale market.
Leave no stones unturned
April 30th, 2010 at 11:19 pm
There is no quick solution to the entire property market saga. HDB needs to be ordered by the government to review the entire public housing system leaving no stones unturned, even if an overhaul is necessary. But is the government willing to explore this option?
For a start, perhaps engage an Independent 3rd-Party to study the existing public housing system, and determine if costs could be further reduced by eliminating non-essential intermediate entities, processes, etc. We have six-sigma in private sectors, so introducing the same in civil services (if not already in place) such as HDB will surely help to reduce the overall costs of public housing to Singaporeans (that’s considering the cost savings are passed on to Singaporeans and not channelled somewhere else).
President Obama introduced the healthcare reform to the benefit of Americans at large, albeit insufficient and an unpopular move. What is stopping us from reviewing Singapore’s public housing system with the chief aim of making it more affordable for the average Singaporean?
I heard a rumour that prices are deliberately surged in past months in order to project GDP and growth figures upwards. A rumour stays a rumour, unless proven otherwise. This is unethical and I hope the respective ministries have no hand in this.
The primary objective of any ruling government should be the benefit of its citizens, both short and long term. If GDP, growth, and staying in power is all that matters, then perhaps a little competition in politics will do us good.
Leave no stones unturned
May 1st, 2010 at 12:16 am
One more area of review would be the cost of public housing. For the sake of illustration:
- My 5-room flat costs me $251k.
- My block has 240 units. If the average cost of 1 unit is $200k, then HDB is selling the entire block at $48M.
Question: How much does it cost HDB to construct 1 block of flats?
I know there is no straightforward answer as there are many other factors to consider, but perhaps we can have a breakdown of all these factors and tag a cost figure to each, for the sake of transparency?
sgcynic
May 1st, 2010 at 5:40 pm
Wah, credit to Mah Bow Tan for exposing the reason for low birthrate. LOL
http://yawningbread.wordpress.com/2010/05/01/mah-bow-tan-exposes-reason-for-low-birthrate/
Vikram Nair
May 2nd, 2010 at 4:33 pm
Hey guys,
Thanks for your comments! Apologies that I can’t reply more frequently. The workplace I spend most of my time at restricts access to non-work related sites, which unfortunately includes this one.
In terms of access to information, as far as I know, being an ordinary member of the PAP does not give me any privileged access to information. Having said that, there is a fair bit of information that is publicly available, which I have included below.
One commentator, No So Blissful, suggested HDB should have auditors. Well, in fact HDB has auditors and publishes audited accounts. These are available on HDB’s website: http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10320p.nsf/w/AboutUsFinancialStatements?OpenDocument
Another commentator, Don’t Shoot Me, asked for the median household income of a person purchasing a 4 room flat and the cost of such a flat. This table on the Ministry of National Development’s website sets out both the median income of the average person buying a 4 room flat as well as the average selling price:
http://www.mnd.gov.sg/newsroom/parliament/2010/parliament_2010_26042010.htm
The median income is $4,100 and the selling price is $263,000. I’m interested to know how you would use these figures to arrive at a housing policy
In any event, according to the table, the monthly cash payment such a household would be required to make for its flat (presumably after taking CPF into account) is $5.
SGND, I take it that the policy your are implying that HDB adopt at the moment is to increase the supply of flats – as far as I know, that is exactly what HDB is doing: http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10296p.nsf/PressReleases/7483E132B5BB19EF48257642000DD0D0?OpenDocument. Having said that, I appreciate your thoughts and, like Singaporean, would be happy to know where else on the web you write
Ah Kow and sgcynic, you two are hilarious
Have a great weekend everyone!
Vikram
Stop Gerrymandering PAP
May 3rd, 2010 at 7:52 am
But what is the actual cost of the flat Vikram.That is paramount to the problem.How much of it is profiteering?
Artificial inflation will subset a unwarranted asset bubble.We are overpaying for goods.Especially if it is meant for public consumption.
A very contentious issue which will break the camel’s back.
Coupled with the massive Temasek and GIC losses in the lurking background.
You are parroting the government and press view/excuses and are circumnavigating the problem.
We need your solutions.Not your links.The buck stops here.PAP has to take responsibilty and set the future direction of the civil service.
Or Mah has to do the honourable thing and step down.I am glad Comrade Swee Say is considering retirement.Labour and National Development need new leaders.
The current lot are getting stale.Soon, rot wil set in.Common place in Governemtn Linked Companies.
sgcycnic
May 3rd, 2010 at 8:23 am
Vivian Balakrishnan is adding to the hilarity too. Lol
Observer
May 3rd, 2010 at 10:12 am
@Stop Gerrymandering PAP
HDB had a loss last year. That means cost of building is higher than selling price. Do you opposition idiots want to increase prices more by pricing at cost of building?
sgcynic
May 3rd, 2010 at 12:14 pm
Strange accounting standards by HDB? Like that any company also lose money. LOL
HDB Annual Report : Deficit has doubled – really?
theonlinecitizen.com/2009/11/hdb-annual-report-deficit-has-doubled-%e2%80%93-really/
Ezlink – the more they sell, the more they lose (so have to charge $5 “costs”)
Mah Bow Tan on the other hand – sell less also lose more. LOL
Mah’s explanation does not square with HDB’s annual report
theonlinecitizen.com/2009/11/mahs-explanation-does-not-square-with-hdbs-annual-report/
Ah Kow
May 3rd, 2010 at 12:51 pm
Wah, you all opposition ah, clown you know. HDB make money, you kao pei why HDB profiteering. HDB lose money you kao pei why got deficit. Wat you all wan?
Sgcynic
May 3rd, 2010 at 8:41 pm
Ehh… honesty, accountability, transparency? LOL
sgcynic
May 3rd, 2010 at 8:42 pm
Opps! Forgot… Competence, value for $$$ (over 2 million bucks)
Rodolfo
May 4th, 2010 at 2:58 am
It will be interesting to know if HDB pays for land on which HDB flats are built on. And if they do pay for land, information on the price they pay. Until these questions are answered, it is likely that people will continue wondering how HDB prices its properties and how much it makes from the oridnary citizens.
Statistics only tell that much.
Observer
May 4th, 2010 at 9:12 am
Are you saying HDB and its auditors are cheating the public Rodolfo? That is serious accusation. Why don’t you make a police report against them?
Don't shoot me
May 4th, 2010 at 4:48 pm
Vikram
I can’t believe you have no idea where I am coming from when I asked for info on building cost of a 4-rm flat and income of 28-yr old sole bread winner of a family. I think you are pretending that you have no idea how these can affect public housing and gave me the useless info that we all already know instead. Don’t you think I won’t have to ask here if I it is these info I wanted?
Ah Kow has unwittingly made the point that people (not just opposition) are not happy if HDB make profit or make a loss. HDB should neither make profit nor loss. We expect highest paid top talents to do a top job. Provide sufficient affordable housing without incurring losses. I take it that HDB is a non-profit organisation.
I am now not surprised with the HDB profit & loss results since you also have no idea what the building cost of the flats are and income of the appropriate mortgagee. The selling price of flats that you mentioned are prices pegged to re-sale market prices, or are they not? I wish to be corrected on this.
You gave median income of buyers (mostly joint income of husband & wife), not income of a 28 yr- old sole breadwinner starting out a family. As indicated in my previous post, it will become problematic later otherwise. This is important if we were to give adults and children good quality of life.
You wonder how the info will affect housing policy. Assuming it is the case that the building cost of a 4-rm flat is $263K but the median income of a 28 yr old sole breadwinner is $2000, then we know that this is barely affordable and there will be problem. So for eg more smaller or cheaper flats should be built in better locations and standards of neighbouring schools need to be improved through increase funding.
Mature families who can afford bigger flats tend to have grown up children or elderly parents. So the bigger flats can perhaps be built further away from city centre. The rural setting will also be better for elderly people.
The housing policy of capping income for size of flats should be reversed. Full mortgage should only be allowed for sole breadwinners, meaning owners are not allowed to over commit financially and find themselves stuck later if one of them cannot work due to children of even illness.
If on the other hand, for illustration purpose, cost of the flat is $100k, and the median income of a 28 yr old sole breadwinner is $4100, then we know that it is no point building many small flats and also the housing policy of capping income for HDB is correct.
I hope you get the gist of my point, as I said I am no MP material, just using some common sense. One last thing, seeing you are the author and moderator, can you please advise your camp to be more civilise and stop calling oppostion ‘idiots’ and ‘clowns’. I would say the same to the other camp too but it seems they have more class!
Observer
May 4th, 2010 at 5:26 pm
I thought you anti-PAP jokers believe in freedom of speech. Why you complain when we call you idiot and clown? You want to criticize government but you can’t take criticism yourself?
Don't shoot me
May 4th, 2010 at 5:50 pm
I have learnt a few things here:
Anyone who finds Govt policy can be improved = anti-PAP
Freedom of speech = calling anyone anything, no restrain
Name calling = policy criticism
Wanting more info = implying fraud
Rodolfo
Looks like you are not allowed to know the truth so that you have no evidence to make police report.
sgcynic
May 4th, 2010 at 6:16 pm
We criticise where criticisms are deserved. You want world-class pay; you show that you deserve it. Otherwise, you wayang, people will whack. We take valid criticisms, we ignore crap. LOL
Observer
May 4th, 2010 at 7:10 pm
I only call people idiot when they say stupid thing.
Don't shoot me
May 4th, 2010 at 8:08 pm
“The workplace I spend most of my time at restricts access to non-work related sites, which unfortunately includes this one.” – Vikram, May 2nd, 2010 at 4:33pm
Sounds like you are treated like a child at your workplace. What happens when you become an MP? Where is the commitment, passion and the drive? Heard of “where there is a will, there is a way”?
Ah Kow
May 4th, 2010 at 8:18 pm
@ Don’t Shoot Me
Eh, you confirm can join opposition lah, your policy all cock wan.
Why the 28 year old sole breadwinner so big ah? You only wan to make policy for one type of person ah?
Ah Kow ah, 25 years old oreddy wan buy flat. Somemore, Ah Kow wife work, so he no sole breadwinner. You don’t care whether Ah Kow can afford is it?
Somemore ah, got 28 year old man ah, wife also work but two together also earn less than $2000, then you don’t care ah? Then got 30 year old sole breadwinner wan to buy flat, also you don’t care ah?
Got so many family wan to buy flat, all you don’t care. Only wan to make policy for 28 year old sole breadwinner? Why this person so special ah?
You confirm no MP material lah. You ask for stupid info, than come up with stupid policy, waste everybody time. You talk rubbish like this ah, confirm people say you clown wat.
@sgcynic
You pussy cat so always kana whack by dog.
sgcynic
May 4th, 2010 at 8:30 pm
Freedom of speech: just curious, what is Kow’s wife called? LOL
sgcynic
May 4th, 2010 at 9:46 pm
Aiyah, of course I don’t care if Kow can afford. Value go up can already. That’s why vot for Mah Bow Tan. You scared HDB price go up (cannot afford) or scared HDB price go down (deflation) ? If both also you scared, you want gahmen do what?
Don't shoot me
May 4th, 2010 at 10:17 pm
Ah Kow
Let me answer your very impt question why 28 yr old is targeted, although I have already explained above.
- Many Singaporeans esp men get married after 25 yrs old. Very, very few settle down before this age.
- Starting a family after 30 is too much risk for fertility.
Why mortgage should not be based on fulltime dual income:-
- Who looks after your chilren when you have them?
- What if one of you fall ill and cannot work?
Therefore if small flats are built in ‘ulu’ places aka Timbaktu, with poorer schools, you are in for trouble! These poor couples also have to pay more for commuting to work. It would make more sense to build bigger flats further away for mature families (who can afford them). These families usually also can afford private transport.
Ah Kow, thanks for your questions.
Singapore Girl Next Door
May 4th, 2010 at 11:25 pm
Dear Vikram,
Everyone agrees that HDB is still building flats
But allow me to say it again that the rate at which HDB builds them (2%) and the manner it is delivered (BTO) are not sufficient to address the demand.
5,000 BTO flats pales with the 50,000 additional households.
And because it is BTO, it only implies that HDB plans to build them but construction wont start til 80% are pre-ordered and there is a 3-4 years waiting time before they become truly available.
“HDB jacking up the market” is an understatement.
When I was still a student and was looking at HDB data, I thought the supply cut was a good idea. Given the States’ investments in private infrastructure and the recent financial crisis, the supply cut will have a favorable effect on the GDP.
But cutting it too steep and then bringing in BTO was a bit too much. In fact, the recent spike in the GDP is testatement that we are overdoing it. The export data just doesn’t tally with it.
Regards,
SGND
Singapore Girl Next Door
May 4th, 2010 at 11:53 pm
Dear Vikram,
Wrt affordability, HDB quoted the median salary of households who already bought a flat.
But the fact that those households purchased the flats already imply that they have the means to afford them to begin with.
There will always be a buyer on the extreme end of the normal curve but they will never be representative of the majority of the population.
What would be very useful is the median income of households whose applications were denied by HDB or by the mortgage bank.
Regards,
SGND
Rodolfo
May 5th, 2010 at 9:47 am
Vikram, I was looking forward to your reply to my posts and was a little disappointed that you didn’t.
Would you agree that somehow the rate of increase of housing simply didn’t keep pace with the pace of population growth? And if you do agree with this, would you also agree that this is either because some leaders were less than awake for a bit or by design to achieve some targeted residential property price levels?
Don't shoot me
May 5th, 2010 at 6:57 pm
To SGND
Pardon my ignorance but how does the supply cut favour GDP? And how does this type of positive GDP favour the people? I do believe every word you said but for the benefit of others reading as well as myself, pls clarify the connection or logic.
You added: “…In fact, the recent spike in the GDP is testatement that we are overdoing it. The export data just doesn’t tally with it.
I am not at all surprised that all these are going on because the appraisal of Ministers (with big bonuses at stake) has always been GDP. If my performance is measured by this figure alone, ironically nevermind what negative impact it has on the people, I will most likely do whatever to jack it up.
This illustration of how GDP can be boosted by cutting housing supply shows that we can no longer believe GDP equals good quality of life for the people. And if they are conflicting objectives, do we still agree that GDP is the only thing the Ministers need to care about?
This boils down to a much deeper root problem, not just about getting the policy right for people. I believe if the housing Minister’s appraisal is different, all those things that make sense might fall into place, like where to build smaller flats making it affordable and convenient for young families, where to build bigger flats making is conducive for young and elderly people, how many flats or how many more to build, setting flat prices correctly etc etc.
Ah Kow
May 6th, 2010 at 8:02 am
@Dont’s Shoot Me
Wah, your policy so stupid ah, I think 28 year old sole breadwinner also don’t vote for you lah. Wait next year they become 29 you boh chap them oreddy. Somemore, their wife wan to work also, you boh chap them.
Lucky PAP no siow like you. Take care everybody, no just 28 year old sole breadwinner.
@Singapore Girl Next Door
Eh, BTO good wat. People wan wat they get. You opposition all ah, wan to anyhow make flat is it? You all don’t care wat people wan ah? Vote for you ah, singapore gostan wan.
@Rodolfo
Aiyah, Vikram ask you wat you wan to do now, you still wan to talk old story. Waste time only.
Rodolfo
May 6th, 2010 at 9:34 am
Vikram, did you read an article in yesterday’s ST contributed by the head of New Independent (independent financial advisors)? He is of the view that it was an error in govt policy not to maintain inventory of unsold HDB apartments. Can we have your views on this?
Singapore Girl Next Door
May 6th, 2010 at 10:07 am
Dear Ah Kow,
The BTO was actually designed to hit several birds in one stone. At first glance, it was a brilliant idea, and up til now heavily debated whether it is doing good or bad to Singapore.
Yet contrary to belief, BTO was not designed to build what the people want. It was actually quite the opposite
FIRST BIRD
When it was first introduced, it was part of the inventory contraction mechanisms since the government was uncertain of the future but one thing was clear – 8% of HDB owners are defaulting even before the financial crisis, an unwanted side-effect of the CPF liberalization.
The data is not released but I suspect the default rate was even higher during the crisis itself, and everyone was worried that we will end up with more supply.
But there was concensus, and this is important, that while supply contraction is important, a sufficient surplus inventory is still required to prevent high and unstable prices.
That’s just basic economics.
SECOND BIRD
Yet what key players wanted is not just a supply contraction, but a near-zero surplus inventory.
I think the original intention was to have a mix of BTS and BTO, wherein the BTS kept at minimum as HDB stocked inventory, but that was scrapped in favor of a “BTO only” scheme.
The overriding factor was the government’s heavy investments in the property market. They fear that more Singaporeans will default on HDBs, but they don’t want prices to “stabilize” as it will errode profits.
THIRD BIRD
China’s GDP is driven by three and only three things – capital inflows, investments in tradeables and investments in property.
This is important because Singapore is in many ways a microcosm of China’s developed cities, but in Singapore’s case, the property market is driven mostly by foreign entities.
The mind-blogging surge in Singapore’s latest GDP is NOT at all unexpected. In fact, reports were available as early as December showing a possible expansion of 20%.
And it was NOT due to the rebound in the world economy but rather in the expected restocking momentum. US Companies, just like HDB, kept minimum inventory of goods because they were uncertain of the future. Now that the worst is over, they have started restocking in anticipation of increased demand. The recent activity in Singapore’s manufacturing sector was entirely due to this. But unless real demand is seen, we can never sustain the same GDP growth.
And this was just 20% of the GDP that was anticipated by the financial analysts. So my question to everyone is where did the remaining 18% come from?
Now take note too that Singapore’s non-oil domestic exports remain low.
So what else is the remaining “green shoot” in the Singapore economy aside from the property market?
Both components contributing to the 20% and 18% reinforces the fact that “real” GDP does not always reflect improvement in the “real” economy.
Regards,
SGND
Singapore Girl Next Door
May 7th, 2010 at 12:06 am
Dear Don’t Shoot Me,
It was not my intention to imply that the government is complicit in jacking up the GDP but after reading my own comments, I need to re-clarify.
It is no longer a secret that a major part of the current GDP growth were due to the property boom. It was so big that financial services for property transactions is also a significant component.
I don’t know if there’s any part of Singapore’s history where such a thing ever happened. We’ve always been an export-oriented economy.
But note that what I meant to say is that the GDP growth is the after-effect rather than the aim of the supply contraction.
It is an open secret that the GIC and TH have heavy investments in the property market, in and out of Singapore. It was so big that when the US property market nose dived, a “significant portion” of our reserves lost their value….and that was just the precursor of the financial crisis.
If the same happen locally, it will be a double whammy.
So the action that the government must take became obvious, and given the sizeable investment in the local property market, high prices and a sustained boom no matter how artifically induced became the logical approach.
It goes without saying that they should not overdo it.
But it boils down to what is really important to policy makers – recovering losses or the welfare of the people. I think they thought the latter can take the backseat in the meantime.
But you know – take all this with a pinch of salt. I can be right or I can be wrong. So a dialogue is always important, and that is always my approach with my students.
I criticize them and make sure it is always constructive, but it does not mean I hate them. In a lot of ways, I have a lot of trust in them
I hope people see the same way when we try to criticize the government.
I may belong to the other side, but I too have faith in our system….but no one is perfect
Regards,
SGND
sgcynic
May 7th, 2010 at 12:35 pm
Not perfect never mind. All are learning and improving. Yet some not only lack humility and pretend to be perfect and try to glosss over mistakes while claiming credit for other people’s effort. The people in the system shapes the system. When we don’t trust some of the people, we need to flush them out of the system.
Don't shoot me
May 7th, 2010 at 10:06 pm
Exactly ’sgcynic’, even Science is never the absolute truth. Astronomers recently discovered that there are only 8 planets. The West keeps discovering and learning whereas we keep saying we are perfect, the best, world no.1, we know it all, finished!
Spore is supposed to be a modern, democratic country with top educated people but some ‘footsoldiers’ in this forum sound like the Red Guards of early Communist China. How to progress? If you cannot critique policies, how do you fine tune?
SGND
I am glad you clarified. Give them the benefit of the doubt, they do not know what they are doing but what is dumbfounding is the people cannot do anything about the conflict of interest.
The Goverment is the business operator cum regulator cum tax collector. Take Cartelling for eg, it is illegal but if the Govt is the operator, who regulates, and vice versa. Then on taxes, do GLCs pay taxes on profits? Isn’t it one pocket to the other if they do? Its wrecking my poor head.
I read through the earlier comments and someone reckon the ‘opposition’ here got their asses kicked. To see such words from the dominant side when they can’t even hold an argument is very off putting. These people are either childish or they have let their bloated bank accounts & papers gone to their heads.
Stop Gerrymandering PAP
May 10th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
PAP has disappeared.Only show up once a week.Wayang towards election.Wants a guaranteed pot of gold at the end.The pension.
Observer
May 12th, 2010 at 9:48 am
Anti-PAP internet brigade has so many comments, but not even one useful policy. Why should anybody waste time with you?
sgcynic
May 12th, 2010 at 11:49 am
At least not crap like yours.
Don't shoot me
May 12th, 2010 at 10:26 pm
Observer
To be fair to you, you might a footsolider trying to be Brigadier General. You all can always don’t waste time here or even in Parliament. Keep on snoozzzzzzzing and see what happens.
When someone wants to stir a hot issue up, s/he needs to be prepared to handle it. After stirring it up and with no answers to even the most glaring questions, the only way out is to let the fire die a natural death. I can understand that.
I started out non anti-PAP but your arrogance has got to me and I am taking a stand.
Rodolfo
May 13th, 2010 at 12:57 am
Sometimes I wonder why this blog is organised in this way.
It doesn’t seem to encourage more than a handful of people to engage with the PAP. And the PAP contributors appear to be a bit too busy to respond frequently. I don’t think this is the way to engage a broad spectrum of Singaporeans. Lip service to the engagement process?
Sgcynic
May 13th, 2010 at 8:58 am
Just note the number of authors for this blog, the number and frequency of articles posted, can we can feel the passion to engage. Lol. I stand ready to be corrected of course
The Pigs
June 13th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
Alaska is the largest state. Texas is the largest state in mainland US. California is the most populated state.